Nukkad

[Singha]

during the last glacial maximum the sea level was 110 m lower than today. australia and new guinea were one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Line

note how india and SL are joined and so is england to france. japan shikoku area is joined to korea and the bering land bridge is wide and clear

[Karthik]

the last ice age ended around 10,000 years ago right? sea levels receded during that age as more water got locked up as ice?
the end of that age around 8,000BC has a link to the invention of farming and the explosion of human civilization.
I have no doubt the earlier inhabitants of the Lanka, the Veddas and other tribes and wildlife would have crossed over taking advantage of low seas and either land bridge or a convenient chain of islands which were easily crossed using ancient boats. the "Tamil & Sinhala" migration would be much later

the people who inhabit the polynesian region set forth from indonesia and philipines in balsa wood and other rafts and went a long long way. they also had functional long distance inter island voyaging and trade networks because raw materials are hard to find in such coral islands. indonesia and philippines which are each 6000 islands were settled a long time ago by "tribes" who managed to cross deep water straits like the sunda and lombok perhaps in dugout boats with sails. that place was a haven for old growth giant trees.

only the larger gaps like new guinea to australia were not easily bridged by later civilizations so the aborigines and wildlife of australia diverged widely and remained cut off from the main kabila of species of the eurasian landmass. that is why australia has such unique creatures like the marsupials, platypus and many more...and why despite being a continent, its population was so low when the dutch arrived. the aborigines had coastal and river fishing boats but no technology to enter and cross the deep seas. the goras rudely took over all the good coastal land which aborigines were farming and shoved them to die in the parched interior.

it suited the supremacist narrative to project the aboriginals as primitive and useless, but they did have agriculture and fish farming
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pro ... st/5452454

How would you explain aboriginals of Australia and Maoris in NZ? I read Aboriginals share DNA with US, and that is because Australia and India were connected before the continental drift. Don't think anyone could have reached NZ on foot. I know this drift phenomenon has been contested. But what you are saying could be because of this, and not because people crossed into SL when water height was same as that of any Indian roads during rainy season.

[Singha]

https://genographic.nationalgeographic. ... australia/

The ocean crossing from Asia to Australia is one of humanity’s great early achievements, but it’s one that is shrouded in mystery.
....
scientists discovered that Aboriginal Australians are more closely related to Africans than they are to modern Asians and Europeans.

This suggests humans migrated into Eastern Asia in multiple waves and that today’s Aboriginal Australians are descended from an early wave that left Africa about 70,000 years ago, before the ancestors of Asians and Europeans. If confirmed, the finding means that present-day Aboriginal Australians are the oldest population of humans living outside of Africa.

...Reaching Australia would have presented significant challenges for ancient humans. An ocean has always separated Asia and Oceania, and travel between the two continents would have required humans to navigate dozens of miles of open water. Whether humans colonized Australia intentionally or by accident—after being blown there by monsoon winds, for example—is unknown, although National Geographic’s Wells thinks the former scenario is more likely.

Another mystery is what kind of water vessels early humans used to reach Australia. None of the boats used by Aboriginal people in ancient times are suitable for major voyages, and some have suggested early humans reached the continent on rafts made of bamboo, a material common in Asia.

[Singha]

maoris are very different from aus aboriginal people and came from polynesia via the northern routes
https://www.newzealand.com/us/feature/early-settlement/

they came to NZ only 1000 years ago, before that no humans were in NZ.

wiki
New Zealand was originally settled by Polynesians from Eastern Polynesia. Genetic and archaeological evidence suggests that humans emigrated from Taiwan to Melanesia and then travelled east through to the Society Islands; after a pause of 70 to 265 years, a new wave of exploration led to the discovery and settlement of New Zealand.[4] The most current reliable evidence strongly indicates that initial settlement of New Zealand occurred around 1280 CE.

[Singha]

the native tribes of A&N islands and malaysia / indonesia could be among the first wave out of africa some of whom moved on to australia.

another great journey is how humans & animals started at the bering strait and moved all the way down to Chile. must have taken a long time, with the southern boundary shifting in periodic surges as population pressure forced people and animals to fan out

[Shandilya]

its not even islands more like sand bars. They grow and decrease in size because of tidal activity.

May be the sandbars are based on Shri Ram's rock bridge.

[Singha]

the sand bars and coral reefs have been there since sea levels rose and the land bridge got submerged. anyone wanting to cross would need to build a causeway(setu) by dumping gravel and rocks onto the lower areas between these bars and islands such that it came passable at low tide.
that would be the civil works projects that Sugreeva's army did.

if the minimum sea level was 110m below current, take a value after the glaciers started melting. even if its 50mts below current level, more of land will be exposed and task of building this causeway more doable.

[Primus]

Check out the latest from Science channel, apparently the rocks and boulders along the bridge are older than the sandbar they sit on. That is bloody confusing, maybe the sand kept shifting and new lots kept getting deposited, but impossible for rocks of that size to simply come in from elsewhere with the water. So maybe there is some truth to it being man made after all. Whether it is built by Ram or somebody else, it looks like human agencies were involved.

On a completely different note, it is possible that like Jesus, Ram was indeed a historically accurate figure but the rest is built up. All this is irrelevant of course as many of us believe in the idea of Ram, regardless of whether he really existed or not.

[nachiket]

On a completely different note, it is possible that like Jesus, Ram was indeed a historically accurate figure but the rest is built up.

Outside of the Bible and Christian religious sources there is little evidence to corroborate the historical existence of Jesus or anyone like him.

[Shandilya]

Nala, a descendant of Viswakarma, the architect of the gods came forward to engineer the bridge and accomplish it with the help of the huge vaaner sena-army.

Ramayana says the bridge thus built on the ocean with wood logs and stone boulders was 10 yojanas wide and 100 yojanas long. The 1:10 proportion of Ram Setu clearly corresponds to the rough physical extent of the ruins of the structure today measuring 3.5 kms wide and 35 kms long. books make a mention about the existence of a 35 Kms long bridge above the sea level that could be walked on by foot till 1480 AD.

In 1804, a British Cartographer called this Adam’s Bridge in his map supported by the Abrahamic myth that talks of a man named Adam crossing this bridge on foot to reach Adam’s peak located in Sri Lanka.

A special kind of stones is found employed in the construction of Ramayana Bridge which could float on water. Air trapped silica shells, pumice stones or the hardened foam of lava from volcanoes are some examples of floating stones. During Tsunami, strange black color floating stones were discovered in the Rameshwaram region and their origins were not discovered so far. These stones have no resemblance whatsoever to the volcanic pumice stones. Till today we do not have any geological explanation to ascribe the origin to the kind of stones that make up the Ramayana Bridge. Several arguments that his bridge is made of natural sand bunds or coral rocks are altogether dismissed since coral is calcium carbonate and this dense material can never float on water. Also, coral stones can never occur in the sea except on hard surfaces. We do not have a concrete theory to consider Ram Setu a natural phenomenon. The mentions of Ram Setu in Ramayana clearly coincide with the present location of this bridge. A number of characteristics of this structure go into say that this could not be a natural occurrence. Therefore we have strong bases to conclude that the engineers of the Bridge during Ramayana times had a superior engineering technology to make stones float on water and thus built this bridge which is till date an engineering marvel.

[Singha]

imo they did bridge over the sea but no need to use floating stones or special means....identify the shallowest path to lanka which would include these sandbars, study the wave patterns and tides and restrain them by creating stone bunds and sea walls (marine drive mumbai), then dump rocks and gravel in the protected lagoonish belt to fill up the low areas and create a path ... need not be very wide also. 50 feet is plenty. pumice etc of greater buoyancy would not easily sink into the sand so sure if available use them.

that way the actual historical "human" Ram is better fitted in a logical way

[Javee]

I would doubt there existed a land bridge till 14th AD. Both Chola kings and Singhala kings used boats to cross Palm straits, if there was a bridge,it would've been mentioned somewhere.

[arshyam]

My thoughts are similar to Singha saar's on this. There definitely was a formation that was later made into a road, a long time ago (Ramayana time and earlier), and went under once the sea levels rose up. According to one estimate I recall reading on BRF or some other forum, the Ramayana could be as old as 5000 BCE, which is almost 7000 years BP (Rama's birth year was mentioned as 5114 BCE). The last ice age was not too far away, and it is not inconceivable that the sea levels were still rising but not to today's levels. So the formation that is under the sea today could have been above sea-level, or at least close enough to it, making it easier to build a road.

I too doubt there was a bridge till 14th century, as there would have been more mentions of it in literature. Also, if Lanka were connected by land, it would have been regarded as a part of the Indic civilisation (Jambudweepa, Bharatavarsha, etc.), and not as a distinct "Lanka". A land connection would have also been maintained as a road, and the resultant literature, language and accents would have evolved to be far more closer to that of the mainland (SL Tamil is more Sanskritic than Indian Tamil, for example). Lastly, there would have been a collective social memory of such a bridge, like the 9 pagodas of Mamallapuram.

Whether the original formation was entirely man-made or part-natural is academic. If people want to believe that it was built by Rama, they should - what's wrong with it? It is just like Kailash or the Shakti-peetams around the country - the place will be held as sacred. At least that will ensure the area stays preserved without modern "improvements" like ships and dredgers.

Lastly, we should definitely refer to it only as Rama Sethu. Adam's bridge is non-sensical, and only serves to perpetuate this debate on the bridge's origins.

[Singha]

even a causeway as narrow as this, which gets awash in storms can carry a lot of people
https://trabol.s3.amazonaws.com/images/4597/4.jpg

[Primus]

On a completely different note, it is possible that like Jesus, Ram was indeed a historically accurate figure but the rest is built up.

Outside of the Bible and Christian religious sources there is little evidence to corroborate the historical existence of Jesus or anyone like him.

You may be right, there is a lot of controversy, even among non-Christians.

I don't want to get into a debate on this, but there are many who believe that he was indeed a historical figure, i.e. probably existed as a human being, but did not do any of the things attributed to him. To quote 'The Guardian', the question really is not whether "Jesus lived and died but whether he died and lived".

There is a fascinating take on this by Sam Harris and others on YT in the famous documentary The God Who Wasn't There.

In any case, my point is not so much about Jesus, but about Ram. I am as big a Ram Bhakt as any and have the Ram Durbar in my tiny temple at home. However, I also recognize that while his historical existence may be doubted, his philosophical and spiritual status in my mind and in the Hindu society at large is firmly established. And thus, the Ram Setu adds to this, regardless of whether it is man made or monkey-made, or not.

[Kabir]

If any mortal can just imagine Shri Ram's actions, teachings, spiritual knowledge, karmas and dharma then that mortal would achieve God status just on the basis of this imagination. some stories may be fiction but the core cannot be doubted as this questions the very existence of Sanatan Dharma principles. Take the Eg. of Kundalini awakening - we struggle to find a scientific proof for this or historical data but without it no Yog is possible, while we blindly believe in every physical benefit of Yoga. Same with bhakti, atman and cycle of rebirth and moksha. None can be conclusively proved using current avail-abilities of western science nor can their histories be traced. There is the gross world and there is the Adhyatmic realm. Depends how we chose to experience life's realities. Mixing the two only creates further confusion. As Kabira and RK Paramhansa have said that little bit of Maya is indeed needed to sustain this life but anything beyond that only creates an illusion of realities.

[Singha]

aussie child abuse enquiry asks vatican to make celibacy voluntary for the clergy
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/14/asia/ ... index.html

4400 cases in australia alone which is some half dozen cities + the sparse outback
http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/201 ... walker.cnn

[Mahakala]

The late glacial is 25-13,000 ka. So sea levels were already on the rise if we date the Ramayana to 7-6000 BC. While the waters may have been shallow, it might not have been traversible by foot.
Ramayana knows boats. They cross rivers by boats. So why they didnt consider building big boats rather than a bridge across several yojanas is perplexing. Even today, its hardly 35km across from dhanushkodi to thalaimannar. Remember, a sizeable portion of dhanushkodi sank in 48 and the rest was pretty much obliterated by a cyclone in 64. Lower sea levels might have increased the distance but not an unimaginable distance to row or sail.

[nachiket]

The late glacial is 25-13,000 ka. So sea levels were already on the rise if we date the Ramayana to 7-6000 BC. While the waters may have been shallow, it might not have been traversible by foot.
Ramayana knows boats. They cross rivers by boats. So why they didnt consider building big boats rather than a bridge across several yojanas is perplexing. Even today, its hardly 35km across from dhanushkodi to thalaimannar. Remember, a sizeable portion of dhanushkodi sank in 48 and the rest was pretty much obliterated by a cyclone in 64. Lower sea levels might have increased the distance but not an unimaginable distance to row or sail.

How much is 1 yojana in modern terms? Is it known?

As for ships, that would depend on the size of the army. Transporting a large army with their weapons, food and supplies and animals (horses/elephants - I don't know if they are mentioned in Ramayan) would take a very large number of ships making multiple trips. The initial beachhead in Lanka can also be assaulted by Ravan's army with Shri Ram's reinforcements slow to arrive. A bridge, if possible is better.

[Mort Walker]

How much is 1 yojana in modern terms? Is it known?

As for ships, that would depend on the size of the army. Transporting a large army with their weapons, food and supplies and animals (horses/elephants - I don't know if they are mentioned in Ramayan) would take a very large number of ships making multiple trips. The initial beachhead in Lanka can also be assaulted by Ravan's army with Shri Ram's reinforcements slow to arrive. A bridge, if possible is better.

According to C.R. Rajagopalachari's "Ramayana" published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan Press, a Yojana is probably 9 miles.

[Narasimha]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yojana

[Javee]

The late glacial is 25-13,000 ka. So sea levels were already on the rise if we date the Ramayana to 7-6000 BC. While the waters may have been shallow, it might not have been traversible by foot.
Ramayana knows boats. They cross rivers by boats. So why they didnt consider building big boats rather than a bridge across several yojanas is perplexing. Even today, its hardly 35km across from dhanushkodi to thalaimannar. Remember, a sizeable portion of dhanushkodi sank in 48 and the rest was pretty much obliterated by a cyclone in 64. Lower sea levels might have increased the distance but not an unimaginable distance to row or sail.

How much is 1 yojana in modern terms? Is it known?

As for ships, that would depend on the size of the army. Transporting a large army with their weapons, food and supplies and animals (horses/elephants - I don't know if they are mentioned in Ramayan) would take a very large number of ships making multiple trips. The initial beachhead in Lanka can also be assaulted by Ravan's army with Shri Ram's reinforcements slow to arrive. A bridge, if possible is better.

The Cholas did the same, and later to an extent Singhalas. They mounted an invasion of Srilanka from India by boats and were successful. So its not completely far fetched, although I'm considering both Ravana and Rama as mere mortals with no extra terrestrial powers.

[chetak]

Chandamama from 1954 to 1986 is available for download from this link. [Chandamama - Good Old Stories] http://chandamama.in/english/

[chetak]

A new series on the immortal and revered Itihasa, the world's greatest epic Mahabharata begins on @prekshaajournal today. Read. Share. Circulate:



http://prekshaa.in/mahabharata-episode/#.WjaQO4Z76xB

[Zynda]

I would like to see a live action of the above with modern CGI/effects with really good scripts, story telling.