Posting in full a debate with a educated Muslim of India. I responded to a post by a reasonable Hindu fellow who has interesting takes on politics on a post he made about BJP losing bypolls.
My first post - response to the reasonable Hindu fellow -
Your take on politics is always interesting but this time I think its more of caste arithmetic rather than anything else.
I assume that you of all people dont actually believe that this Government is worse than the UPA. Crony capitalism is Congress ki den not BJP's. Most of these scams have their roots in Congress rule. Ambani made his fortune under Congress protection yet today popular media portrays as if Ambani is a 'BJP seth'! Ambani has bankrolled Congress since 1980s. It is well documented.
I completely understand that this government is not perfect but it is miles better than anything we have had in last 10 years. Even the global leader hallucination that you think Modi has (I partially agree) has done good for India in the foreign policy space.
Their China & Pakistan policy is hit and miss and I am not at all happy with it but will you rate it above Congress who just for domestic political compulsions handed Pakistan the bogey of 'Hindu terrorism' to weaken our case in international forums?
About Jaitley too I agree with your perspective and Finance Ministry is a missed opportunity. But still fiscal deficit is down and Economy is on the right track. For the first time in many years, infrastructure is being looked at with a sharp focus. Basic things that were missing are being made. So not that bad.
Lastly, regarding secular ethos. You seem to buy into Islamo-Evangelical narrative of BJP being a communal force. It is a travesty that in the only place Hindus can call home, any party that slightly tilts towards Hindus gets called communal. This is despite the fact that Indian Muslims broke this country into two just 70 years back and in these 70 years nothing on the ground has changed. Jinnah once said, Hindus and Muslims are two different nations- with different heroes, villains, stories, culture and cuisines. Tell me how in 70 years has this changed? God forbid if these Islamist parties rule India ever again. They have done nothing since independence to integrate Muslims into the mainstream and if this is not done soon, we will be looking at another partition in 50 years.
Sometimes we must think of the next 50 years instead of worrying about tomorrow.
So now, a butthurt educated Indian Muslim who lives abroad, butts in with this response -
First response by Butthurt Educated Indian Muslim wrote:All the points are refutable and contentious....
I believe this establishment is worst India has ever seen...it can be compared with any...
Crony capitalism is Congress den....
Bofors was 64 crore...Rafael is 58k crores...Crony capitalism has thrived more in five years..
Adanis .ambanis...neerav...modis have all prospered at exponential rate far higher than Congress....the logic does not hold water..
Accusing others to say...we did what others did doesn't absolve them of anything...they said they were different...they were..because they were worse...
And foreign policy...dancing in rock concerts is not foreign policy ....
Pakistan...is Pakistan not stronger...did terrorism decrease...Kashmir is back to 90s..
Who went to have Briyani and dance there...
China...the lesser we say the better...they have intruded us at will...our leaders swing like Cheshire cats...we are as subjugated as the yesmen...
Nepal chided us...
Srilanka is buying arms from Pakistan...
Maldives chided us...
Iran is leaning towards China and Pakistan...
Afghanistan...the opposition is strong and leaning towards Pakistan ...
Russian have started business with Pakistan..
Trump mocks us when he wants...
What is the foreign policy then...where is it better...?
Now financial status...it's in dire status..we changed the formula and still hovering at 7.3..which is as good as 5.3
What development has happened that is radical...
Five years...less jobs...less manufacturing...where is make in India...
Higher inflation...bad Taxation....costly railway...
Where is smart city
Bullet train
Metros..
And regarding being communal...
Tilting towards a religion in governance is being communal...
And being a Muslim I take offense that Muslims broke this country....it's both Hindus and Muslims that broke this country...
Majority of Muslims debunked Jinnah theory to stay with India...
Being educated and calling the whole community as unpatriotic is what ails us now.....
This new establishment has fed us with this hate..
Majority community is being made paranoid...80 percent is being made to be scared of 15 percent...how intelligent is this...
Jinnah said that 70 years...the leaders of establishment are saying that now...what about that..
Majority community is being scared ohh these islamists would come and rule...
How in democracy is it possible....this fear is creating filthy communalism and educated people are falling prey to it..
There are no points in this reply why this establishment is better...
It's based on delusional paranoia...that minority is bad and they would break this country...
This establishment is bad...weakest....lamest....most corrupt and communal...
They would break this country if they get to rule it more...m
I responded -
My 1st 1 to 1 response wrote:
Hi. Let me reply point by point.
Rafale is a government to government deal, you may not be following it but to call it a scam is quite something. Buying aircraft is not like buying vegetables. There are weapons packages, avionics suites and offsets. Please find better scams if you want to abuse a party because of your political leanings.
Regarding foreign policy, Pakistan is not stronger it is weaker. It has been isolated internationally. Instead of it buying cutting edge weapons from US and France it is now reduced to getting junk from China. I'd call that progress.
With China, India stood eye to eye in Doklam. They never set foot on Indian soil. It was in Bhutan that the stand off happened and Chinese blinked. Why do you have an inferiority complex and calling ourselves subjugated? If you want to blame someone, blame the governments in 1980-2000s that allowed the Chinese to sprint past us economically that they now have so much money, they are buying countries with it.
Sri Lanka has been in bed with the Chinese since the late 2000s, please read about it.
Nepal I agree has distanced since 2014. I concede it was this government's fault to an extent.
Maldives chided us? When? Again, Chinese have been investing in Maldives since eternity.
Iran is leaning towards China but Pakistan? Really? Iran-Pakistan relations are the lowest in history since last few years with no help from India!
Regarding Russia-China- Pakistan axis developing, I'd need a bigger screen to talk about it. But you're right and it will happen simply because of the pull China has on Russia right now and several other geopolitical reasons.
Higher inflation? Can you please post figures here? Let us see this inflation.
Now regarding communalism. I am sorry you take offence with my stated FACT. But it remains a FACT that Indian Muslims broke this country. Why this spin now that both Hindus and Muslims broke the country? It was Muslim league that brought the 1940 resolution not a Hindu League. It was also the Muslim League that swept more than 95% of all Muslim seats in the 1946 provincial elections, a simple google search will be enough for this. Majority Muslims stayed in this country because the Hindus made this country dharm-nirpeksh, while Hindus in Pakistan and BD have been massacred.
Even today Muslims vote in 1 single bloc, not Hindus. Infact, Muslims are the biggest voting bloc in the country. Yet you call this paranoia.
For the past 70 years Muslims in this country have been kept under Mullah raj and out of the mainstream. Even today Muslim identity politics is strong. Is it not?
His response to the above -
Response by Educated Indian Muslim wrote:
Let me reply in the same manner.,
Rafael is a scam....a company with no defense history gets formed weeks before the deal and becomes the official introlecutor ..how..
Why is the price of jets way higher than what Congress agreed for and also anywhere else in the world....
What extra was bought....so it is a scam and would remain a scam..it's worth 58 k crores....and the establishment is answerable...
Pakistan is stronger...if terrorists have increased...their activities have increased...Kashmir is in turmoil...more soldiers have been martyred..
This hogwash of political isolation does not hold water for a failed state....they are killing our soldiers at will...and doing business all across...us China...Iran..Saudi all are having big business and loans for it...
It is not progress if Pakistan is doing what it does more vociferously..
With China...we did not do anything...they still have presence in doklam...they intrude at will....now we Meekly deserted Dalai lama for them..
I don't have inferiority complex...unfortunately I am being led by a timid meek incoherent megalomaniac...we are just good at swings with the Chinese..
Srilanka is now buying arms from Pakistan and helping them financialy...failure
Nepal...failure again..
Maldives chided us....they said if you don't want interference in kashmir...keep bay...they want life with China...Rajeev gandhi did help Maldives when needed...a timid leadership can't do that...so yes we were chided..
Iran...added China and Pakistan to chabhar seaproject which was with so fanfare called Indian diplomatic victory...Iran is is supporting...China road project in Pakistan...they are ready for pipe line through Pakistan as well...so again..it's right..
Russia..they have started tacit axis that includes Pakistan ..
Inflation....I can see on the roads with the people...every thing is costly..railway platform tickets to vegetables to edibles...all are expensive...statistics are way to hide things. In statistics, India does not have problems at all as per our leaders in parliament...
No Indian Muslims didn't break this country...
Hindu mahasabha Pined for it before Muslim league...read jaswant Singh book on partition...yet I would agree Muslim league paid a big role...but a big chunk of Muslim population stayed....they are not anti nationals...
Hindus were persecuted in Bangladesh and Pakistan because they have theocracy and are failed states...should they be our ideals...
Muslims and Hindus both though India to be secular...and yes Hindus have more role in it...but it's not only them...it's all the religious beliefs...cultures..
Muslims vote for secular..what is wrong in that....how many mps Owaisi has...one...how many Muslims are in parliament...very few...
Muslims can swing elections in around 100 plus seats...do we have 100 Muslims as mps...
Paranoia is being fed by this establishment...
They would get in majority
Muslims would marry and rape your daughters
Muslims would make you slaves...
Come on...it's 80-90 crores vs 15 crores...with normal mathematics knowledge, it would take centuries and centuries and that too it is not possible ..
Muslims are in bad financial scenarios and with less education and that is their fault...and yes, they need to work on that...
But a party who got this big majority to get cheap use religious hatred and fear to milk voters is so outrageous...
Where is development.
Is Vadra in jail..
Where is 2g
What happened to black money
Where is strong leadership
Where is make in India..
What is start up condition...
Where are jobs..
Railway conditions..
Low manufacturing...
And what we got was...
Love jihad
Yuva vahini
Gau rakshaks
Anti science dolts
Go to Pakistan brigade..
There is nothing constructive to be proud of..
Whataboutery and scaring people
My response to the above -
My response wrote:
Hello. You seem to have an issue with facts & numbers, preferring insinuations and accusations above hard numbers and facts. You say everything has got expensive yet the figures show the CPI has come down since 2014 and remained low. Food inflation has come down tremendously. Yet you claim 'everything has gone expensive' without giving numbers. Even the petrol/diesel prices are less than what they were in 2013. Yes the crude oil prices crashed but the Government used that windfall to fund infrastructure schemes. I see nothing wrong in that.
The road building rate under this Government has 2-3 times that of the UPA era. The employment rate is lower, the food inflation is lower & was negative in the first time in 10 years in 2017, Trade deficit is better, stock performance is better, the foreign reserves have grown way faster than under UPA, current account deficit has improved quite well. The poor have been for the first time integrated into the financial system. Almost all macro-economic indicators put this Government in a favorable place, ofcourse, it is not perfect and there are areas it could have done better but to say that this is 'the worst government ever' does not hold water at all!
Now, regarding Rafale. I don't think you were following the MMRCA. Eurofighter & Rafale were selected at the end of the MMRCA competition and Rafale was chosen as the L1. You said that India has purchased Rafale at a higher price than other countries. This again is factually wrong. The only other countries that have bought Rafale are Egypt and Qatar. Egypt bought 24 aircraft at a price of 217 million Euros per bird; Qatar bought same number at 263 per bird. India bought 36 at 217 million Euros - same as Egypt but our deal includes 50% offsets, which means France must invest close to 4 billion Euros in India. How is this a scam? There are also other differences between UPA's Rafale negotiations and NDA's Rafale negotiations - NDA included the weapons package with Meteor (world's best BVRAAM) & Scalp (ALCM), as well as Performance based Logistics agreement where the French are legally bound to ensure fleet serviceability of more than 75% at any given time.
The company you claim 'with no defense history' is actually a JV between Dassault & Reliance Defense (formerly Pipavav), so not exactly a company with no defense history & definitely not a scam. In fact, we should actively promote entry of private sector in defense sector. L&T has done a stellar job in the Nuke Sub project, for example.
Anyone who has been following the MMRCA deal (and I have been), will laugh at the joke that this some kind of a scam.
About foreign policy, again, our neighboring countries have been warming up to the Chinese for a long long time. I am not exactly on-board with Modi's Pakistan-China policy and criticism is fair game. But I never said he was perfect, just that this Government is miles better than the anti-national scum we had before.
By the way, Sri Lanka first bought arms from Pakistan some 10-12 years ago after India refused to sell them weapons for the fear of upsetting the TN Gov. Please read before you make claims. Sri Lanka has also approached India after they realised that they did in Hambantota is a disaster. India now owns the Airfields overlooking the port leased to the Chinese for 99 years. Threat neutralized.
Last time we intervened in Maldives, we defended the legally elected Government of Maldives from the Tamil mercenaries. Do you really want India to militarily intervene between the democratically elected President of Maldives and the Judges/Opposition? While I share your concerns of Chinese squatting in Maldives, we can't go and invade other countries for simply not doing our bidding.
Regarding China & Doklam. Please understand that China has always been in Doklam, not now but since decades. They claim it as their territory. For the first time, the extended the road to Indian border which threatened the Chicken's neck. The Indian Army went over, destroyed the road & sat there until the Chinese went back to their previous location to which they stand till date.
About CPEC/OBOR, India is the only country that has boycotted it. While I would love nothing more than a few Su-30MKIs flying over PoK and bombing some Chinese building equipment, I doubt we are in a position to do anything more. Again, if you want to blame anyone, blame the successive governments from 1947 till late 1990s who kept India poor, so that today we have no hope of matching the Chinese dollar for dollar. Do you know how much aid they give out? Google it, you'll be surprised.
About Partition, why do you want to insult my intelligence and that of everybody reading your comment by claiming 'Hindus & Muslims both caused partition'? Why would Hindus partition their country? Hindu Mahasabha won a grand total of ZERO seats in 1946 provincial elections where as Muslim League won almost 100% of Muslims seats. Hindus voted for Congress and Muslims voted for Muslim League AND Partition. It is quite simple and I don't know why you as a Indian Muslim should defend the wrongs of the Indian Muslims of that time. You had nothing to do with it and nobody blames IMs of today for the partition. But it is a fact that almost ALL Muslims voted for Muslim League yet not everybody migrated. The numbers speak for themselves.
You say Muslims are secular but I don't think they are. I, as a follower of the native religion of this land, am concerned that even today, Islam takes precedence in the lives of Indian Muslims rather than local culture or nationality. Why do you think Indian Muslims hate Israel? I have never ever seen a single Indian Muslims who supports Israel or is even neutral towards it. They all hate Israel. Why? Israel is a friendly country to India and has supported defence projects that are vital to India's interests. Then why? Is it not Pan-Islamism? If 15% of the country puts the concerns of foreign nationals & issues that are not relevant to India over the interests of their country, then it is a problem, don't you agree?
Even after 70 years of independence, lives of vast number of Indian Muslims has been controlled by Ulemas, blocking any kind of new thought, reform or modernization. Any reformer or thinker is quickly declared munafik or non Muslim and is thrown out of the religion. Can any Hindu priest in the country declare any Hindu a non-Hindu? No. But a Maulana can ostracize any Muslim from the community by simply claiming that he is undermining Islam & is working for anti-Islamic forces. Is this not the argument being made for women who are against Triple Talaq? They say it live on TV! Everything in the lives of Indian Muslims is seen via the prism of Islam, not whether it is right or wrong.
Politically also, clergy controls Muslim voters who, by the way, are the largest single voting bloc in the country which is why these 'secular' parties pander to Islamist Mullahs so much. I don't see any outrage about this from any 'modern Indian Muslim'. All I see is namecalling for the BJP as 'fascist', 'nazis' and what not.
India is secular because Hinduism is secular. We have no single book, no single god, no set of commandments - is this the same in Islam? Are Muslims and Non-Muslims equal in Islam? What happened to minorities in the only Muslim majority state in India? Has there been any attempt to secularize the Muslim population here since 1947?
These 'secular' parties that you talk of - they have only strengthened the wahabi clerics & Ulemas - what good has ever come out of it? They get the votes and leave the Muslims to their fate. How many Muslims are educated like you today?
Yet Muslims continue to vote for the same parties due to the fear propagated by politically compromised Maulanas & Politicians who scare them with the 'Islam khatrey me hai' bogey and instead of changing this paradigm, educated Muslims like yourself repeat the same thing.
His response -
Indian Muslim wrote:
I gave you examples...
Prices of edibles have increased
Oil has increased
Gas prices have increased
Vegetables prices have increased
Manufacturing cost of a home has increased
Railway tickets are costlier
Platform ticket is...
Fertilizers are expensive
I asked you name something that has gone cheaper....
Petrol prices internationally was many times more than what it is now....and yet oil prices nationwide are higher..
Where has the extra cash that government got from oil funds...gone..
Is health insurance or health care cheaper...
Has that improved...
What has improved...
Which smart city was built..
Which bullet train ran..
Yes...bjp headquarters was built...for crores and crores...that's an achievement...
What else...did the extra cash get in Taxation rebate.
We have many extra cesses now....we pay it...are we more clean...is Ganga clean...
I am asking questions that I see....I am not getting into statistics of some government agencies...statistics are like mini skirts...what they reveal is interesting...what they conceal is essential .
Don't accuse me of male Chauvenism...this was sidhu saying it...I am quoting him.
Regarding Rafael....
I would just say and I can go back to desktop, read some articles and copy it from there to back my assertion but I would again say is that...
All that France has promised they would do...and what not. Is being sold as an alebi to sell over priced deal...
That's it....there were lots of justifications for bofors too...every scam can be justified by a politician...
Reliance partnering with any organization was just a decoy....we all know about Halliburton and Iraq war...
All justified stuff..
So this data and technology baloney won't work...every facade has a justification...
UPA agreed for a lesser price....you didn't....you over priced it...used your friends to earn billions...
That thing of fdi and creating jobs is a baloney we have been fed by politicians..when upa was agreeing at a lesser price...they were not asking for replica of Rafael...they were buying jets...same one...they would have flown too..
Neopotism to help crony capitalism is evident ..it remains a scam..
Srilanka has drifted from India in recent times.
Nepal chided us openly...
Maldives...we openly did that in East Pakistan...isn't it....you need to have guts. Spineless leaders can't do that..
We have done intervention..we didn't do now...because subjugated spineless megalomaniac are at the helm..
Regarding doklam...who gave us that logic that if this xyz becomes prime minister, China would be afraid and run away.
They were always there..they are more brazen now...again spineless leadership..
And we are showing our timidity by disallowing Dalai lama...how much more we have to stoop..
About CPEC, Indian boycott hasn't helped...
Pakistan killed 5 more innocents today...the Kadi ninda guy would again say something laughable..how long..
Who sold us that misnomer that this xyz is brave and different and would take actions..?
Who sold that...why this whataboutery then all.the time..
Nobody stops this timid loud mouthed to take action...has he...?
And again about partition, I would seriously doubt your intelligence if you say it's your country only..
What makes you Say that..? Who are you to say that...enlighten..
You are just as much as an Indian as the last man standing in India. So everyone who is reading it should feel blighted at this brazen statement...my country...
Hindu mahasabha opined for it...long back...
Congress was also a hindu majority party....there were savarkar inspired leaders everywhere ..it's a false ideology like Jinnah.....
Don't you know shyama Prasad Mukherjee ..gowalikar...hegdekar ..
Muslims stayed in India too after partition...why did they if all wanted partition.some had to go because they were staying in now Pakistan...
Partition was a Hindu Muslim disaster...I would take offense as Indian Muslim because it was not just us...be it then or now...
You are native from this region...forget that...aryans came from Central Asia as invaders won against dravidians...
So keep that superiority out of discussion...
And I can laugh when people compare patriotism with religion ..two different things they are...how can you compare apple and cricket bat..?
It's like are you more a father or a great worker at office..laughable isn't it..
I can be both...haha
Why I can't I be a good Indian and good Muslim too..why should I have to say what are you more. Laughable...
Why is it important to accede to a culture...it's not required..
Why do you want south Indians to learn your culture..
Why do you want north eastern people to imbibe your culture...
Muslims don't need to imbibe your culture...stop this mansplaining. ...you don't decide what cultures people follow or like...
You are just as an Indian as any person from India..this high pedal vigilante isn't good..
Why do you want Muslims to love Israel..is it mandatory to being an Indian...do we ask you who you love or hate..do your bit..love Israel..adopt it...be there...who cares...
Any country that has business defense deals with India....nobody is obliged to love them...Israel is doing business...they get money..we buy arms...so should I start crooning in their cacophony...if you want...drool...we can't...
Neither it is Indian constitution as a requirement to be an Indian...put that there...I might..
After thousands of years...Dalits are still persecuted in India..
They have separate temples well utensils do manual scavenging and have separate villages..
People wash their houses in India when Dalits enter...why. .
No maulana can ostracize any Muslim like that...you are not well read...
.fatwa is not binding..how many Muslims in India do you know we're ostracized...
Triple talaq..let me explain...
Instant triple talaq is banned not triple talaq..
The government still does not have a corpus for what Muslim women would do when their husband go to prison for three years..
What happens if he comes back ..what is the financial security...
Divorces in hindus are higher than Muslims as per 2011 census...why to make it a big issue...I agree though triple talaq given instantly.should be scrapped..
What is wrong in keeping Islam in perspective if we decide things..come back if we do something wrong...not while people respect their religion...
Since 89 one party has been doing majority appeasement....they succeeded in 2014 and destroyed this country with their foolishness...
They are fascist....there is nothing wrong....they have been scaring majority community against minority since decades..
If Muslims vote as bloc, why don't we have hundred Muslim mps..it's a misnomer...Muslims are as scattered as everyone else..the only thing that Unites them is not voting for communal hate mongers...
I don't deny India is secular because majority of Hindus are secular...and majority of Muslims Sikhs Christians also want it..
Hinduism has no book...no single God...no commandments ..fine..
Why should Islam have it...is this an argument..
I don't have a book...why do you have it..?
Everyone is equal in Islam...except taqwa that's how you behave and live your life and be pious...
If you are talking about kashmir....do you know the official figures of Pandits that were killed in srinanagar and find how many Muslims have died in valley..
Pandits exodus is bad...but read about exodus of Muslims in jammu...your peaceful religion followers did it...
And leave that...every city is an example of Muslim exodus...we live in ghettos...small designed mohallas...
Dharavi in Mumbai
Jhuapura is a dump yard in Ahmedabad...
We don't get houses for rent....we can't buy flats at places....who is doing it...one sided outlook is bad...
Yet Muslims are living and not complaining..they want security and equality...
How many Muslims are educated or not loses the point when I see educated people like you having such a biased constricted opinions about Muslims...
What would education do...if it is creating more hate...more suspicion and more acrimony
Though I confess, Muslims need to study well...but it saddens me seeing educated people with restrictive outlook..
For ten years..I.have only heard..
Muslims are increasing..
They are uncivilized
They would kill and rape your daughters
They are barbaric
This fear is being fed in majority community...this is taking us back..
My response -
My response wrote:
My friend, its really frustrating that despite me spending time to ensure that I do my research before posting, you come out all guns blazing with ZERO facts or figures and just insinuations. 'Oh your facts are all baloney, I know best! I say its a scam so its a scam'.
This is going to me my last post on this thread because I believe it is better to end this on a civil note and of course, I wouldn't want to waste time with somebody who can't put forth arguments that can be backed with numbers while I spent considerable time looking at facts & figures to present defensible arguments.
Now, do you understand the difference in cost of a 'Flyway aircraft' and 'Aircraft with weapons package'? The flyway cost of a single Rafale in 2011 when the tender was first opened was 102 million Euros. The NDA government has finalized the deal with the flyway cost of a single Rafale as 107 million Euros. Now an increase in cost of 5 million Euros per aircraft over 7 years is justified due to inflation. The rest of the deal is about weapons package & other deliverables where every penny is accounted for. If you can't respond with figures about where & how NDA has committed the scam, in what item & where the money is going, then please take my advise and stop referring to this deal as a scam.
Rest of your post till the Maldives remark is just 'this is baloney, that is baloney, facts & figures won't work' and random statements which do not warrant a response from me.
Now come to Maldives. I cannot believe that you're comparing what happened in 1971 to what is happening in Maldives! Do you realise that 10 million East Pakistanis were intruders in India as refugees and Pakistan bombed our airfields to start the war. Which world are you living in where these two events become comparable? 3 million East Pakistanis were butchered by Pakistan Army, how many people are dying in Maldives? Have some sense of proportion, my friend. Don't go blind in hatred.
Doklam - another nonsense argument without any real pointer. I will ignore this.
CPEC - What is your solution? See all you have is 'what about that, what about this, this is baloney, that is bullshit' but you have no argument about what should have been done.
In all your responses, you have not come up with an alternative approach to what should have been done and what this Government is doing. Its all endless whining and you call me 'mansplaining'! Funny!
About Partition. Congress was Hindu majority- so what? Can Muslims not be represented by Hindus? Is this your secularism? Why do Muslims have to be represented by Muslims only? Is this not the issue that Jinnah raised - of separate electorates? You say there were 'Savarkar inspired leaders everywhere' but Savarkar was never in Congress. I know about SP Mukherjee, Hegdewar and Gowalikar but what you intend to imply about their role in the partition is unclear to me. Its like you're just throwing off names from the top of your mind and hoping something will stick but it will not. Nobody is responsible for India's Partition but Muslim League and the people who voted for Muslim League and as an Indian Muslim of today, you're in no way responsible for whatever happened back then. But to intentionally deny & twist the history to them, just because they happened to be Muslims, is condemnable. You can take offense to facts, but that doesn't change history.
Muslims continued to live in India because the Hindu majority India made this country secular & ensured equal rights. Did that happen in Pakistan? Even an Ahmediya Muslim is a second grade citizen there, leave alone non-Muslims.
Your next attempt to discredit my argument - about AIT is laughable. Do you know where Aryan Invasion Theory currently stands? Horse fossils. Yes, you read that right - entire theory is based on Horse fossils. Several researches have shown that no new genes entered the Indian genepool in the last 5000 years, yet time & again the same outdated argument is thrown around.
About 'my' culture & religion - can you show me where I have said in my response that you ought to follow 'my culture & religion'. Infact, there is no 'my culture'. You twist my arguments to accuse me of wanting 'South Indians and North Easterns' to follow 'my culture'. Why are you imagining things I never said? I only said that I follow the native culture & religion. South Indians, those who are Hindu or Tribal, also follow their native culture & religion. And I as an Indian claim all of that as my collective heritage.
I find it funny & offensive at the same time, when you say 'why should Muslims imbibe your culture'. It proves my point that you're first a Muslim then anything else. It is not 'my culture', it is your culture as well. Your ancestors & mine - both followed the same culture until our paths diverted. But just because you changed your religion doesn't mean that you also fully imbibe Arabic culture. At least, that is how I feel, I know how you feel so please save your time responding to this.
I personally, do not think burqas & hijabs should exist in India. But well, to each his/her own.
I also, do not expect everyone to love Israel. But when you hate a friendly country because your coreligionists of Arabian peninsula (who btw don't give a shit about subcontinent Muslims) have a running feud with the Israelis (and the additional history of Jews vs Muslims), it is discomforting to me as an Indian. It shows that you put religion over nationality.
You don't hate Israel because they are making money off of us. You hate Israel because you're a Muslim, why don't you simply say it out loud? We all have the freedom to think & say whatever we believe, don't we?
It is also funny that you talk about Indian constitution. The same constitution also speaks about UCC but majority Muslims don't want anything to do with it. So when the constitution favors you, its the best thing since sliced bread and when it doesn't, you play the religion card of Quran > Constitution. I am not talking about you personally but the line of thinking of Muslim leaders & clergy (that may or may not be representatives of all Muslims but definitely have some following as is evident on Social Media these days).
As far as Dalits & Caste discrimination is concerned, haven't Hindus worked for eliminating it? We are still working on it and hopefully, soon enough it will be a thing of the past. But you see that's how problems get solved. Not by saying our religion is perfect and cannot be changed.
I never said that Islam should be like Hinduism. It is not. I simply said that the reason India is secular because Hindus are the majority. I am also sure that if the situation was reversed, India would no longer remain a secular country. Plenty of examples around in today's world.
Muslims living in slums & poverty. Is this the doing of somebody else? Muslims since 1947 voted for the wrong leaders and got used by Ulema, as they are - even today. If Muslims want to change, why don't they leave religion on their doorsteps when they go out & join the mainstream as Indians and not Muslims. Why don't they view the world as Indians and not let their worldview get shaped as a Muslim. Why do Indian Muslims come out on the streets for Rohingyas but not Pakistani Hindus? Why did 2+ Lakh Bengali Muslims assemble in Kolkata to protest the war trials in Bangladesh but no a single Muslim protested the KP exodus? Why did Muslims in UP desecrate a Buddha statue in Lucknow and Muslims in Mumbai desecrate the 26/11 memorial for whatever happened in Myanmar? I see Muslims in my friend list sharing pictures of Gaza, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. Why?
It is exactly this Ummah delusion of belonging to a pan-Islamic nationhood without borders that caused the partition and if not corrected, this will happen again.
As I said at the beginning of my response - this is my last post. I did not mean to offend you in anyway and wish you a good week ahead. Cheers.
His response
"Indian Muslim" wrote:
Why are you spending so much of time to defend something indefensible...
What I am saying is whatever you are saying has long been there in the purview to save this establishment for his gung-ho attitude...
Whatever extra that you are saying is promised are all declarations, insinuations...
If it were so direct....why did the defense minister not reply it when it was asked...
Why is it so simple for you doing a Google search and so difficult for the government who actually did the deal...
Your whole research is available on net...isn't it...someone posted it to support that deal...
That person was not part of the deal...the government was.
Let the debate happen in parliament...why are they shying away..
Defense ministers and leaders of UPA also know about the intricacies of the deal...the establishment is shying away because it won't stand a debate...
That's the point..
So your whole reaserch time is in vain...
Second point...no Tom and more Harry...can go form an alliance with a big defence company and bag a deal worth billion ..why did it happen and what credentials do they have...?
I asked you to read about Halliburton and Iraq war..you would get the context..
If this is shady...people would raise questions...if it was a matter of Google search, the government wouldn't have been shying away like they have. ...
No responses to any of the points raised...does not make them Invalid...it just makes them unanswered..
Yes...Maldives intervention is akin to Bangladesh... Indira gandhi was a brave PM in literal sense and not figurative terms like we have it now...she took initiate.
The point is simple...millions of innocent lives are being taken in Burma...Syria...Afghanistan...Iraq...Yemen....some interject...some don't..
Likewise...it was brave of Indira gandhi to heed to distress of people in Bangladesh....she was brave...now we have paper Tigers...
You can ignore doklam...it suits your narrative.
Who said there would be a strong response to China...did I...the xyz is running away and singing song on a swing.
If you procrastinate like a brave...act like one...
CPEC...why should I have solution for it...I am saying the world is alienating us...we are more vulnerable in our neighborhood...even Bangladesh would have a unfavorable government next time...so where is the win...where is the guts...
We announced the chabhar seaport project with so fanfare....Pakistan and China were invited to join it..
I have an alternative approach...you just didn't get it..
This is most corrupt timid subjugated megalomaniac establishment...needs to go...anybody would be better..
Tharoor as foreign
Rajan as finance
Chidambram as home
Ahluwalia as commerce
Omar Abdullah as HRD
Sachin pilot as education
Scindhia as railway
That's the alternative...
It's an educated..learned group...
What do you have now.
Entire political science
Kadi ninda
Yale graduate
Lawyer liar
Twitter wannabe
Darwin hater
Hawkings quoter like a fool
This is what you have now...
And that one was my alternative....I hope I was making myself clear about the alternative.
About partition...that's why I said Hindu Muslims both are responsible...I didn't say which party...and yes Muslim league is more to blame for it...not others though are sinless saints.
Separate nation was raised by Hindu mahasabha before Jinnah had joined league...that's documented...
I said savarkar inspired...I didn't say savarkar...did I...
I won't buy your logic at all...that Muslims of that time were only responsible for partition
It was Hindu mahasabha first that raised it...please refer to good books...Lala lajpat raised it first...before Jinnah and anyone..
After lajpat rai...it was savarkar...hedgewar were part of Hindu mahasabha...later joined rss....they all supported British...we're informers and wrote clemency letters to Brits..
So I am not throwing names...I just wrote because I thought you are learned enough to get it...if you didn't..my bad. Read.
So it was not Muslims alone..
You are changing history and accusing one community...there are good books of history still before these barbarians destroy them, read it....I gave you context...
What happened in Pakistan is not my look out....Pakistan is a failed state...
What happens in India is should matter...Hindus don't do some favor by doing that...yes it is because of Hindus that India is secular...but all opted for a secular country .....that high moral pedestal is uncalled for...every India n is equal.....
Don't be part of dinesh batra school of thoughts please...
Aryans came from Central Asia is proven..the world says that and not just Indian historians...
It's just to satiate Your religious beliefs...but won't help...
Aryans were invaders from Central Asia....
You said that quote unquote you don't think Muslims are secular because, you, as followers of native religion of the land,concerned that even today, Islam takes precedence rather than local culture or nationality...
What is local culture...you said that..why do I have to follow local culture...I can respect it...I should not be asked to follow it...why should I ..
Why is it needed to follow any culture who you can native at your whims and fancies and others can't...
Muslims can be Indian without following your diktats and your certifications...these are native cultures and yours is not...
My friend..you are not native as well...
Culture...why should your culture be my culture....why....who made this farcical rule..
Whatever culture I imbibe or don't is my personal free will...cultural diktat is passe ...this is nonsensical...
Your cultural beliefs are based on paganism...mine is monolithic...why should people compulsively do something you want...
I decide what my culture is...
I personally don't think untouchability should exist in India...it exist pretty badly...to each his own..
Burqa or Naqab is a womans right...compulsion on that is wrong..if girls are allowed bikini and miniskirts, what is wrong if she herself wants hijab...
Whatever be the reason..
Why should I love and croon for Israel...whatever be the treatment, millions of petro dollars are coming from middle east many time more than Israel who is making profits.
You can swoon..drool...chuckle for them...why to expect Muslims to do that...
I am not remotely asking you to like middle eastern countries that don't sell anything but give jobs to our people...I won't judge you on that...
So your discomfort is delusional...it's hypocrisy...
I don't waste my hate though on any country but this hogwash of suggesting why don't we all love Israel....they sell us weapons and make billions is utter comical...
Go read it again...the constitution is yet not binding on ucc...it suggests it...
Go change it..who stopped you..11 years and Nada..why..
Another
Points...
Sikhs should be asked to remove turbans and wear helmets
Sikhs should not cry Kripan
Every tribal of any religion would get sc st reservation...Muslims don't get it..
Chantelle tribal marriage act
Any conversion from Hindus to Muslims makes people lose their reservation...change it..
Do these and come back...and I would chuckle if you do one of it..
Quran and constitution...hahah...again comparing Tendulkar and federer..
Muslims are under same criminal law as you...I won't get a separate treatment as per my religion if I commit a crime...
Dalits discrimination....
Worked for it...yes..
But millions still suffer
People die
Are poor
Are uneducated..
It's very slow progress..mindset is still decadent...
There are thousands of fatwas about changes in Islam being imbibed...it's not stuck...
Malaysia is secular
Indonesia is secular
Two of biggest Islamic countries...
Add turkey too..
And religious persecution isn't always in a theocratic state only though I agree it's wrong...it's in other places too..
Muslims live in ghettos sometimes not because of poverty but because of security and no option...
My friends were denied rented apartments at many places...
Muslims can't buy flats and rents and many places..
That's exodus for you..despite having money they stay at coagulated places...
What is wrong in protesting about wrongdoing...the point is...it is wrong doing..
If they do about rohingya....you do about Israel...you do about trump...you do about that monk in Thailand...if you think.they are right...
The question is whether they are right or not...choice of subject is not what you want them to do...
Karni sena...openly threatened to break India live on television ...
They destroyed millions In property..
Jat reservation led to millions being destroyed...people died...they openly threatened to break India....attacked police stations...too..
I would not quoted them to score brownie points...
If you do, you are a nationalist...us, anti nationals...
What is wrong if your friends are concerned about Gaza....you be concerned about Israel...do we castigate you..
You even did yagnas for trump....he is similar to the megalomaniac...I didn't waste my time questioning my friends for it..why did they do it..
Be a cosmopolitan...be concerned...
Your point is why are people concerned about atrocities in the world...isn't it lame..
What's wrong in it..if you laugh at a kids death in Syria and I say it's sad....what's wrong..
I am not judging you for your laugher...don't judge me for me being concerned...that's it..
And in compendium, I top would like to just say....it's fine that I don't agree with you but I respect your opinions...
I am willing to coexist with my difference with people...I found you erudite and assertive and educated unlike my most debates getting into personal slugfest..
Let's enjoy our diversity..stay blessed
This is the quran in one hand & computer in one hand gang. On top of it, I noticed a few more things -
a. they are unabashedly Muslim first, culturally, politically & religiously
b. It has become non-PC to say that India was broken by Muslim league. You have to say
both Hindus & Muslims broke this country.
c. Modi can bring 15 lakhs back to every account, install a gold plated toilet in Muslim homes & make rivers of milk & honey flow but Muslims will continue to hate him
