The Great Indian Political Drama - 1 (Oct 2017 - Mar 2018)

[jamwal]

Bjp Jammu will suffer if the local legislators don't start addressing concerns of locals. Thsee mlas and mps are not doing anything to fulfill the poll promises.

[JohnTitor]

Jammu can be written off just like punjab

In both cases the greed to be in power is the reason. They should dump pdp in jammu jusy as they should have dumped akali in punjab. Both are a liability.

[MehtaRahulC]

Gus, Can YOU explain why Modiji etc have NOT freed Indian temples from Govt control? Even in RSS ruled states like MP, Gujarat, MAharashtra etc, we see temples under Govt control?

explain 'free temples'. currently majority trusts are installed by congress or has cong pasand people in charge whereas majority states are ruled by bjp. Free them now and shoot your own foot?

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By freeing temples, I mean
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(1) Hand over Devalaya = temples to original owners / trustees or their heirs
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(2) Print a law that will enable temple trustees to create SGPC like structure over temples , so that temple devotees can elect temple heads
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(3) Print a law National Hindu Devalaya Management Act - which will NOT manage all temples at all, but manage the 4 National Devalaya - Ram Janam Bhoomi Devalaya, Krishna Janam Bhoomi Devalaya, Kashi VishvanathDevalaya and Kahsmir's Amarnath Devalaya. And the heads of this National Devalaya Trust will be elected / recallable by ALL HINDU voters of India.
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I have proposed FULL law-drafts for above 3.
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For (1) and (2) - the proposed drafts is at https://www.facebook.com/mehtarahulc/po ... 5729791922
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For (3), the draft is at --- https://www.facebook.com/mehtarahulc/po ... cation=ufi
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This way , govt control over temples will end and temples will go back to trustees of devotees

[Mahakala]

Mehtaji,
One sumaal problem. Nobody will agree on how to define a "Hindu". I don't have to tell you about cryptos. Hindu officially but in practice anything but. How will you ensure EJs don't come in using this loophole? We will have judges then sitting in SC and telling us who is hindu and who isn't andtelling us whom to elect to run our temples under some convoluted legal loophole that no layman will understand.

[Hari Seldon]

I just added little bit youthfulness to the winds. That's it.

IOW, more gas. To the break-winds. Yawn.

So called uber RW is only good at messing things up. It is proven on record.

Thus spake the know-all. Must be true since @syam is so youthfully claiming so.

that's not my problem.

And when is anything your problem? How can anything be a problem to one who knows it all, eh?

P.S. Chillax, dood. Move on, no point us engaging each other. My last to you, feel free to have the last word. Oh, with all those yootful smileys and all also. G'bye and G'luck.

[Hari Seldon]

@AjayKK, @JohnTitor

Thanks for understanding the Hindu identity POV.

For the record, I didn't start this discussion here on BGR.

I merely responded, in a civil way, to blatant misrepresentations (insinuated lies, basically) about Hindutvawadis being pro-Sonia/congress etc.

And nope, I don't intend to let those canards go unchallenged should the same chaps repeat the MO. Only.

[syam]

P.S. Chillax, dood. Move on, no point us engaging each other. My last to you, feel free to have the last word. Oh, with all those yootful smileys and all also. G'bye and G'luck.

Yeah. Let's move on. You continue to crap on every Hindu organisation and political movement. I mean, it's not like you invested anything in it. They die and they work. You piss on their sacrifices.

[jamwal]

I am talking about development work, maintaining constituencies kind of things. PDP -BJP gobarment is only marginally better for Jammu and Laddakh than NC. Ironically, PDP on it's own will be worse than lone NC regime

[JohnTitor]

@Hari

There's nothing to be thankful about. We are in the same boat. If your goose is cooked then so is mine. This is something hindus have failed to understand for generations.

@Syam
I think you are taking it a bit too far. No one person, not for one second even, thinks or believes that the congoons will be a better alternative to BJP. Having said that, that doesn't mean they cannot question BJPs current motive and the lack of any progress on issues concerning the hindu. Hindus in many parts of the country are facing the same (or even worse) situation now that they did during the UPA. If you are saying that they shouldn't question this and just keep waiting it's a bit unfair. Because every passing year puts hindus in a weaker position. Time is against us. Change in demographics is already starting to show, it can only get worse if laws aren't fixed.

Let me say again, both development and this can happen simultaneously. Even if little progress is shown, people will be patient. While there are plenty of reasons BJP lost 2004, one is definitely the lack of progress on their promise regarding RJB.

[Supratik]

test

[syam]

@Syam
I think you are taking it a bit too far. No one person, not for one second even, thinks or believes that the congoons will be a better alternative to BJP. Having said that, that doesn't mean they cannot question BJPs current motive and the lack of any progress on issues concerning the hindu. Hindus in many parts of the country are facing the same (or even worse) situation now that they did during the UPA. If you are saying that they shouldn't question this and just keep waiting it's a bit unfair. Because every passing year puts hindus in a weaker position. Time is against us. Change in demographics is already starting to show, it can only get worse if laws aren't fixed.

Let me say again, both development and this can happen simultaneously. Even if little progress is shown, people will be patient. While there are plenty of reasons BJP lost 2004, one is definitely the lack of progress on their promise regarding RJB.

How will you fix these laws to save hindus? If you pass them without preparing support base, next government will roll it back. Whenever BJP got chance, they passed pro-hindu bills.

Passing bills won't fix any issue. You need workforce to implement it. Our system is compromised beyond repair. With out fixing it, bills are no use. See every communist org or Islam or church have their own institutions to maintain their eco system. Hindus have no such set up. You guys want our state assets to work as pro-hindu.

[syam]

For temple hundi management,

If you guys think the donations and hundi money going to government, you can easily bypass it. Form a temple committee. Ask for donations and direct the money to your Hindu activities though this committee. You can operate this committee without involving government.
@MehthaRahulC

[pankajs]

Let see what happened with the Rohingya issue because some guy was moaning daily about the issue on BR. They want VISIBLE action. Only that will satisfy them.

The moment the GOI opened its mouth a bunch of *eminent* lawyers with *liberal* credentials rushed to the SC to get the whole process stopped. I wanted to wait for the verdict to make this post but the way the issues are being discussed forced me to write on this before the SC rules.

With an *internationalist* SC presiding what is the expectation of the forum on the SC ruling? There are three likely scenarios

1. SC gives the GOI full authority to go ahead and do what ever it i.e. GOI deems necessary.
2. SC *allows* the GOI to do the necessary BUT with a lot of conditionals.
3. SC stops the deportation till the conditions improve in Burma.

What is the likely scenario? It is NOT going to be 1 but will be one amongst 2 or 3 with the end result that a few *security* risks will be *allowed* to be deported while the majority or most will get to stay in India for ever. SC might even mandate GOI make *reasonable* living arrangements for their stay till they are deported under *improved* conditions in Burma perhaps conditioned on Amnesty's [pick you poison] satisfaction.

How did this come to pass? Because the GOI got vocal about it. If it had worked silently it *might* have gotten its way. But will the RW accept silent work?

[pankajs]

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... t-4875374/
2002 riots case: Gujarat High Court rejects Zakia Jafri’s plea, upholds clean chit to Narendra Modi, others

[pankajs]

Even the temple management issue is not that simple. There will be many questions but lest start with the first.

To whom will the temple be handed over?

Saying to the Hindus is not enough because the VERY NEXT moment MULTIPLE petitions will be filed with the SC fighting over control with every Hindu group throwing its hat in the ring against every other Hindu group. It will start with a charge of fraud and perhaps end with a charge of discrimination or may be not even there. So in a very short time, say days months, the temple will move from under Government to "a" Hindu group back to under the SC. The so called *liberal/progressive* media will add a bit of a sex scandal and/or a murder or two in the mix to make it spicy. Back to square one but not quite. What then?

This above scenario does not require genius to figure out. Also a nice way to pit one Hindu against the next. Who needs the BIF btw.

"Give it to the Hindus and let them figure out how to manage" will NEVER work. It has to be FIRST figure out the management structure that is *SC resistant* and then hand over the temple(s) to such a board.

[Vnms]

Syam, where do you think the work force is going to come from?

I'm all for Vikas. That will ensure the neutral folks to vote BJP. However, some things also have to be done for the Hindus. Something. Anything. Hari, John et al are not asking for the moon. One or two doable items will go a long way. These folks are the 'boots on the ground'. Most of us are arm chair jernails.

RW folks understand that if their core issues are addressed, it would only be under BJP. No other party is going to do it. You can walk and chew gum.

Incidentally, I too got irritated when RW complained about core issues not being addressed. But this was like 1 yr into the 5 yr term. But, after 3 yrs, even I would expect some progress on this front.

[sanjayC]

The top 50 temples across India in terms of revenue collection should be taken over by the Government and handed over to a "Hindu Charitable Trust." The donations should be deposited in a corpus. This will be used to run schools, hospitals, orphanages and relief works across the country for Hindus, especially in areas dominated by tribals and dalits. Let it focus especially on the 100 poorest districts of India. Modi government needs to do this - this will checkmate conversions by church.

[MehtaRahulC]

Mehtaji,
One sumaal problem. Nobody will agree on how to define a "Hindu". I don't have to tell you about cryptos. Hindu officially but in practice anything but. How will you ensure EJs don't come in using this loophole? We will have judges then sitting in SC and telling us who is hindu and who isn't andtelling us whom to elect to run our temples under some convoluted legal loophole that no layman will understand.

All that taken in care in the proposed drafts at https://fb.com/mehtarahulc/posts/10154682828176922 and https://fb.com/mehtarahulc/posts/10154735729791922
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In a serate proposal, SCjs are expelled and replaced by Jurors i.e. 15 to 1500 voters chosen at random from voter list between age of 25 years and 55 years across India.
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And "Sanatani" is defined as --- anyone who claims his religion originated in Indian subcontitent , and has never declared himself as Muslim or Christian or Parsi. The proposaed law used word "Sanatan" and and so members of sects can use without or after applying label of Hindu on them
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For mnore, pls see the draft. I wont be able to discusss all details, and anti-RM-elements will then start demanding a badn on me
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But congress / rss / aap members oppose proposals to allow Hindu temple owners to create SGPC like structure on Hindu temples. They want temples to be controlled by their men and loot.
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For temple hundi management,

If you guys think the donations and hundi money going to government, you can easily bypass it. Form a temple committee. Ask for donations and direct the money to your Hindu activities though this committee. You can operate this committee without involving government.
@MehthaRahulC

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Existing laws DO NOT allow Hindu Devalaya = temple devotees to have SGPC like structure over their temples. So committee members or trustees can usurp the temple wealth for ever and devotees cant expel them. Also, many devotes donate to large temples like Balaji Temple. And all these temples have been snacted from the original trustees / owners and are now placed under Govt control. My proposal is to return the control BACK to original trustees or their their heirs. Without fixing laws, it is NOT possible to return these temples back to original owners or heirs

[Vnms]

Let me propose a couple of options for temple management:

1) No taxes to be paid by temples. None.
2) All benefits, loans, leases should go to verifiable Hindu orgs and Hindu individuals and should not be transferable.
3) Every year, a certain % of donations must be spent on temples and improvements.

If these 2 rules are implemented, I don't care who had control over the temples.

[JohnTitor]

Even the temple management issue is not that simple. There will be many questions but lest start with the first.

To whom will the temple be handed over?

I'm not sure who you are addressing but I'll be satisfied if hundi funds are uses for the temple and temple alone. Currently (some 85%) it is being sent elsewhere and the temples are being left to rot. Let the government manage it for now, we can figure out how to transfer ownership later. But ensuring funds are uswd for the temple alone and publishing accounts of every expense must happen. Is that too much to ask for? If the left and BIF cabal kick up a fuss for that, it's irrelevant because that will always be the case and there is no pleasing these people.

This site has a neat description with figures and links.

http://guruprasad.net/posts/really-happ ... ple-hundi/

[MehtaRahulC]

Even the temple management issue is not that simple. There will be many questions but lest start with the first.

To whom will the temple be handed over?

Saying to the Hindus is not enough because the VERY NEXT moment MULTIPLE petitions will be filed with the SC fighting over control with every Hindu group throwing its hat in the ring against every other Hindu group. It will start with a charge of fraud and perhaps end with a charge of discrimination or may be not even there. So in a very short time, say days months, the temple will move from under Government to "a" Hindu group back to under the SC. The so called *liberal/progressive* media will add a bit of a sex scandal and/or a murder or two in the mix to make it spicy. Back to square one but not quite. What then?

This above scenario does not require genius to figure out. Also a nice way to pit one Hindu against the next. Who needs the BIF btw.

"Give it to the Hindus and let them figure out how to manage" will NEVER work. It has to be FIRST figure out the management structure that is *SC resistant* and then hand over the temple(s) to such a board.

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I have answered ALL these questions in the law-drafts I have proposed
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The control over 4 new temples - Ram Janam Bhoomi Devalaya, Krishna Janam Bhoomi Devalaya , Kashi Vishvanath Devalaya and Amarnath Devalayapa will remain with National Hindu Trust where each Hindu voter is voter, and head is elected / recallcable
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And existing temples will be handed over to its original owners and / or its heirs. It is possible to decide the lineage and close cases. And in the law I have proposed, the cases are decuded by Jury of Hindu voters and judges will have NO jurisdiction.
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The top 50 temples across India in terms of revenue collection should be taken over by the Government and handed over to a "Hindu Charitable Trust."

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I complete disagree. All EXISTING temples should be returned to its owners , trustees or heirs. No confiscation of wealth for greater good. If National Hindu Trust wants, they can also build more temples which will ne owned by Hindus of India. But wealth of existing temples should be ONLY taxed and not confistcated (and wealth of ALL churches, mosques, gurudwara etc too should be taxed)
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Anyway, I will comment more AFTER you have uploaded the FULL DRAFT of the law you have proposed and after I have read the draft. Pls do put link to your draft PDF . I will read and reply.

[MehtaRahulC]

Pls start a new thread called as "Freeing Hindu Devalaya from Govt control"

[Gus]

I merely responded, in a civil way, to blatant misrepresentations (insinuated lies, basically) about Hindutvawadis being pro-Sonia/congress etc.

Isn't this being cute? and a bit hypocritical when all along you claim that others are building strawman arguments and valiantly demolishing blah blah..

Nobody is saying that hindutvawadis are pro sonia/congress. Even if somebody says that - that would be wrong, obviously.

BUT -if you are going to add to the negativity din and cause vote splitting or suppression - the result will be pro-sonia/congress. There should be no illusion about that.

[Vnms]

Gus, by the same token, if the government does take up the core issues, there will be no negativity from RW and hence, no Sonia/congress.

If RW folks cannot talk about issues dear to them, then where exactly can they?

[Hari Seldon]

Let me propose a couple of options for temple management:

1) No taxes to be paid by temples. None.
2) All benefits, loans, leases should go to verifiable Hindu orgs and Hindu individuals and should not be transferable.
3) Every year, a certain % of donations must be spent on temples and improvements.

If these 2 rules are implemented, I don't care who had control over the temples.

+1 saar. The grand dharma sansad will take too long to form and deploy for this purpose.

Point #2: Make a level playing field for Hindu run schools on par with mainority ones. Let explicitly-Hindu schools (defined as ones which have one period per day dedicated to teaching Hindu epics, say) have the very same rights and responsibilities now available only to minority ones currently.

Say you will do it and see what happens.

Let the psec cabal howl and they will anyway - calmly answer that nobody is taking away any of the privileges minorities currently enjoy, so why the takleef.

I understand it may get challenged in court, but that will anyway happen regardless of whether you do it "silently" or openly.

+++

Oh, there's one poster here above 'moaning' (his/her words, not mine) that if only 'em evil RWers hadn't forced Modi sarkar's hand into going 'open' on the Rohingya issue, the matter would've gotten silently sorted out.

Apparently some RW genius ranted 'daily' on the Rohingya dhaga or something perhaps forcing Modi sarkar's hand.

Take a minute and think about it. The chap's assumption being that the c-system, which managed to insert Rohingyas all the way to Jammu from Burma wouldn't notice Modi sarkar's quiet moves and hence wouldn't go to SC. What're the odds of THAT happening, eh?

Oh, and BTW the same-same fellows are happy to allege at every hat-drop and every mild-criticism of mahatma Modi that the RW is naive, suicidal, counter-productive and what not. Go figure.

But the instant, jumpy naysaying - the ready ease with which excuses are trotted out and brandied about for why any action on Hindu causes won't work - "What Hundi? ... Who to give control to? ... It's all useless.... Nothing will work!..." and so on and on.

They could rather spend a fraction of that time and energy on listening, exploring possibilities, alternatives... but no, the rah-rah crowd is wedded to defending Modi sarkar's every inaction on this front. So no hope there. Only.

+++

Amitbhai Shah is not the PM. As party prez he is more able to speak his mind. Was happy to see him do plainspeak openly on the killing fields of KL. Openly applauded him for doing so.

Would be great if at least he, as someone with influence in Modi sarkar, conversed with the Hindutva voters rather than talk down to them, or worse pretend like they don't exist. Only.

Yogi ji is another plainspeaker, I appreciate his anointment as head of UP sarkar. So yes, things are looking up here and there. Would be awesome to know there's a method behind the madness, that promises made haven't been forgotten, that the Hindu identity voter isn't being taken for a ride, yet again. Only.

Time will tell. Will wait and see.