Creating an Indian English Dictionary

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shiv
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Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by shiv » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:01 am

For me, personally this has been a longstanding sore point. There is no reason why common Indian proper names or Indianisms should not be included in a separate dictionary that can be downloaded and used in your browser or word processor.

We seem to treat English as second wife - we want her but we only accord her "keep" status. On the other hand when Indian words appear in a phoren dictionary it is like arranged marriage. Our "parent dictionaries" say Occsphord dictionary or Camebrij accept the new word and we then happily take her.

Amreeka for example lifts the back of skirt of words and violates them from there - giving us words like "I snuck through" for 'I sneaked through". They say rowt for route and misl for missile. They have some pride in themselves - but we Indians can only take vicarious pride in following Amreeka or mother Britain.

We should also accept common grammatical constructs made by Indians just as the Brits are happy to accept "He aren't comin'"

I hope to get people to add to this thread common Indian words, misspellings, grammatical constructs etc. There is a huge number - many of them are used by us regularly. But them must become mainstream in our own dictionary. Having made this introductory post - my brain has emptied itse;f of all information. I will add my own word and phrase suggestions in dues course in later posts.

Vayutuvan
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by Vayutuvan » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:08 am

Those people are 'out of'. (For people who are not local).

shiv
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by shiv » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:55 am

Words/phrases I would like to see:
  • yaar
    bhenchod
    unkal
    chalo
    mandir
    pooja/puja
    chapati/roti
    co-brother/co-sister
    prepone
    vomitings
    ganna juice
    makhi maar
    ghee
    sambar
    idli
    dosa
    vada/vada-pav
    chappal
    puncher
    bhai

KJo
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by KJo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:30 am

'puncher' etc are not really words. They are there because someone heard it wrong the first time and it perpetuated.

Just like "vold-ane" for "hold on" when the truck cleaner tells the driver to stop while reversing.

"overailing" for "overhauling". The first time the TVS 50 repair guy told me he had to "overail" my bike, I wondered why the hell he wanted to put more oil than needed.

shiv
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by shiv » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:36 am

KJo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:30 am
'puncher' etc are not really words. They are there because someone heard it wrong the first time and it perpetuated.
I have a quibble with this statement. Dictionary makers use "live language" to add words. In this case you are doing exactly what I am complaining about - which is cross-checking with existing western dictionaries of their own live language and declaring that puncher is not real. Not real for Occsphord. But it is very real in India across thousands of street corners which bear the sign "Puncher repair" placed by non-English literate people who have never heard the original "Punc <harrumph> ture".

Puncture sounds like puncher so the spelling needs to be changed and rationalized. Or at least accepted as an Indianism that is widely recognized.

We have a strange way of accepting what is "given" from abroad. For example - when the American says 'snuck" instead of "sneaked" it is considered fine. When the Gujju woman says "I bate him" instead of "I beat him" it is "grammatically incorrect". Why?

I mean what is all this about:
  • eat- ate
    meet - met
    greet - greeted
    beat - beat
How can we even teach this language if we the skilled users depend on some colonial era paradigms and fail to see how the language is being used "on the ground" - by real live people

Another Americanism that is accepted unquestioningly is "I will be with you momentarily". Grammatically "momentarily" is "for a short while" but it is used in place of "in a short while". But hey who cares?

Riding on Uber and listening to that synthesized voice reading "Hare Krishna road" as "Hair Krishna" is painful. We need to step out of English chauvinism and look at accents and use "Haré" and teach that - or put the real pronunciation in our own dictionary.

shiv
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by shiv » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:42 am

KJo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:30 am
Just like "vold-ane" for "hold on" when the truck cleaner tells the driver to stop while reversing.
In South India the accepted terms are:
rai-rai (right right) for "keep going"
and
"oldee"/"oldeet" for "holdit"

The pdf below tells how English words have been internalized into Japanese
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

Pokemon is a classic Japanese adaptation of English that the world has accepted.

I think there is a fundamental divide in Indian society where the English speakers see themselves as a separate bunch from the "vernac" crowd and do not accept the vernacular unless already vetted and accepted by occsphord in words like catamaran, bungalow, jungle, cummerbund and mulligatawny

Vayutuvan
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by Vayutuvan » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:11 am

In Hyderabad/TelangANa,

paaraku == fork (of a bicycle).

pancharu == puncture (as already discussed)

KJo
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by KJo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:29 pm

shiv wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:42 am
KJo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:30 am
Just like "vold-ane" for "hold on" when the truck cleaner tells the driver to stop while reversing.
In South India the accepted terms are:
rai-rai (right right) for "keep going"
and
"oldee"/"oldeet" for "holdit"

The pdf below tells how English words have been internalized into Japanese
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

Pokemon is a classic Japanese adaptation of English that the world has accepted.

I think there is a fundamental divide in Indian society where the English speakers see themselves as a separate bunch from the "vernac" crowd and do not accept the vernacular unless already vetted and accepted by occsphord in words like catamaran, bungalow, jungle, cummerbund and mulligatawny
I am talking about South onlee saar, and Mysore in particular.
The cleaners say vold-aaaaaaannnneeee to get the lorry to stop backing up. For years I wondered what voldane was until I realized it was hold-on. Before voldane is obvious rai-rai (right-right).

Never heard hold-it or its version in all my years there.

KJo
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by KJo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:40 pm

Some news to please shiv saar.

Indian words go global: Anna, achcha! enter the Oxford dictionary :D
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 233305.cms
`Abba', Urdu word for father has also been added. Other words added in the latest edition of OED are Achcha, Bapu, Bada Din, Bachcha, Surya Namaskar (thanks to Yoga). Most of the Indian words added pertain to relationships, culture and food. In addition to Achha for okay that already exists, Achcha, an exclamation used to express an emotion of surprise, doubt and joy, is now in Oxford English Dictionary .

shiv
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by shiv » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:21 pm

The Times of India is celebrating white man's acceptance of Indian words. That is completely useless for us and it is hardly global because 1.3 billion Chinese and 2 billion others don't give a rat's ass for English in their day to day transactions. We really need to stop celebrating this praise of servant from master and get on with creating our own dictionary which our phamous "globally recognized" IT people should be able to make as an add on for browsers or word processors. Like fonts.

KJo
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by KJo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:39 pm

shiv wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:21 pm
The Times of India is celebrating white man's acceptance of Indian words. That is completely useless for us and it is hardly global because 1.3 billion Chinese and 2 billion others don't give a rat's ass for English in their day to day transactions. We really need to stop celebrating this praise of servant from master and get on with creating our own dictionary which our phamous "globally recognized" IT people should be able to make as an add on for browsers or word processors. Like fonts.
Think about it this way. Oxford/Webster dictionaries are considered to be the "standard" of the English language whether we agree or not. So the more Indian words get included, the more they would be used in world conversations. Note that I am not saying "white man's conversations", it would be used by Arabs, Chinese, Africans also. Examples are nirvana, karma etc.

If we want to take a chauvinistic approach then we might as well give up on English and stick to Indian languages onleeee.

shiv
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by shiv » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:06 am

KJo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:39 pm

Think about it this way. Oxford/Webster dictionaries are considered to be the "standard" of the English language whether we agree or not.
I am trying to say that the standard is
a. Not good enough for Indian usage
b. Needs massive additions

You are of course welcome to stick to the Occsphord/Webster dictionaries. I have no say in your choice. That is after all what most Indians are taught to do and you are doing that faithfully. Having spent my life following those dictionaries - I now feel that they are inadequate for Indian usage and are unfriendly towards Indian names, words, descriptions and meanings

That is why I believe a new dictionary is to be generated.
If we want to take a chauvinistic approach then we might as well give up on English and stick to Indian languages onleeee.
This is an emotion laden declaration that has nothing to do with anything I have said. It is your right to hold this opinion but has no bearing on what I am trying to encourage.

I am asking, why our famed IT sector cannot include these words in a dictionary so my browser does not underline them as if they are typos?
Image

KJo
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by KJo » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 am

So it looks like you are asking for a dictionary of "Indian English". In that case there has to be a break between what we know today as English and have a new version called "Indian English" with all the words you recommend. This is not unique, there is French and there is French-Canadian. I am told that there are significant differences. The same with Spanish and other versions of their colonies.

So that means that there can be an Indian English too.

I like some words there like pooja, dharm, sambar, appa, appa, chappal but don't like "puncher" which is just a silly corruption of "puncture". Just my opinion.

If it's a dictionary you are suggesting, then why not?

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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by Zynda » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:34 am

A couple of years ago, Google Maps voice over for directions in desh was voiced by a beautiful sounding Indian female. All Indic street names etc.., were sounded like they were supposed to. I think one has to select "Indian English" in language settings for the above to come in effect.

I did not know prepone is not officially listed in dictionary. Always thought it was a word gift from gora land. I remember using it in Amreeka without any issues...still use it!

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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by Javee » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:52 am

Just read somewhere there that oxfurd has included appa, anna and accha in their list.

Shakuni
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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by Shakuni » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:53 pm

That the Oxford/Cambridge/Webster dictionary is the standard bearer is quite akin to the MCC being "the custodian of the Laws of Cricket". How we accept that nonsense is beyond me.
And that is precisely why the America/Americans are where they are. They have rejected orthodoxies of the past and created their own standards. So it's perfectly ok for them to color the labor without feeling the need to apologize for not writing a check.

People often talk about historical reasons for the American dialect being different - and the same thing applies to India. The Indian experience with the English language started in a different era, and we have retained some of the quirks of that era's phrases and idioms, while adding a dash of our own words to it. What would be great is an Indian entity taking ownership of Indian English.

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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by Primus » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:50 am

The old joke goes something like this:

Englishman to Indian: Hey, your accent is funny.

Indian: What accent? There are more of us who speak English than you, YOU are the one who sounds funny.


I think it is time for India and Indians to come out from under the shadow of the Brits and establish - nay, enforce - our own identity upon the world. We are almost where our economy is bigger than theirs. Combining that with our demographic advantage and our soft power, there is no reason to feel inferior.

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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by JohnTitor » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:44 am

Interesting thread. Strictly speaking though, it doesn't make sense to call all such words indian English. In fact i feel it is a disservice to indian languages.

Words like appa amma bhai etc aren't even English. They are just indian language words transliterated - spelt in the English alphabet. Words like punture and prepone may be considered indian English because those are not transliterations.

Such a dictionary is unnecessary simply because you can spell and use any such word in English and it would be fine. What one needs to be careful about is not calling it "indian English" when in fact it is "indian [languages] in English". I hope the subtlety isn't lost. One is the Indian version of English and the other is indian languages transcribed in English.

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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by yaaya » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:51 am

Bhaiyya .. it is even called 'In-glish' even if it is written 'En-glish'. It is auwers onlee. Inglish it is - says yaaya also read yeah! yeah! :)

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Re: Creating an Indian English Dictionary

Post by JohnTitor » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:03 am

Eh? That doesn’t even make sense.

By that logic every English word is also a word in Kannada. If you come to Karnataka, you will see every shop and office spelling English words in Kannada.

So Accenture, dry cleaners, Pizza Hut etc are all Kannada. So they should all be put into the Kannada dictionary.

The point of an Indian English dictionary should be to make official, words that are used in India as a norm but not accepted elsewhere. Words such as “prepone”.

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