Yoga and Spirituality Thread

General nukkad-style discussions.
This forum is lightly moderated, and members are expected to moderate themselves.
Post Reply
Kabir
BGR Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 am

Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Kabir » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:10 am

Yog(a) in simple terms means getting connected with the inner self or union of the Atma with the Paramatma - soul and the universal consciousness.
It not only defines a set of rules to achieve the ultimate state of balance in life but also gives solutions to everyday problems in the most natural ways possible. Somebody has said yoga can solve most of humanities problems from terrorism to poverty. No analysis is needed to prove this statement as is evident from Bharat's greatness in every sphere when spiritual prowess preceded all its scientific and economic achievements.
Yog(a) is Bharats greatest contribution to humanity. After the efforts of the Indian Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi, the UN and 177 Nations unanimously supported the idea of having 21st June as the International Day of Yoga. 21st June being the longest day of the year and of spiritual and cultural significance in the northern hemisphere. Meditation is the most intrinsic and integral medium to achieve Yog or the union and hence is said in the same breath as yoga.

This thread is open to contributions, discussion and debates on yoga, meditation and spiritual knowledge sharing. Spiritual discourses and debate is a lost art in India, where almost every treatise or recorded works in Sanatan have been an outcome of a discussion or debate between two seekers, gurus or a seeker and a guru. There have been countless wise men born in this country whose works and teachings are not being done justice by sheer ignorance of people and its leaders or lack of application knowledge. Even something as simple as applying the Gita to our life can help understand many of our personal and social problems. We talk about Chanakiyan politics but are not sure which principle to apply where in what situation.
BGR being an offshoot of BRF beautifully blends national topics with general discussions. This thread may not necessarily be the man cave of solace but can be used as a thought inspiring avenue nevertheless.
Links and words of wisdom from spiritual masters is also welcome including their suggestions on nation building, which would be history repeating itself many times over if we look at their thoughts spanning several millennia.

Kabir
BGR Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Kabir » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:17 am

A great explanation by Guru Jaggi Vasudev on how Yoga is universal. 'Gravity is Christian' part is quite funny and unquestionable :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh5D3rV1ubY

Shakuni
BGR Newbie
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:30 pm
Location: New York

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Shakuni » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:23 am

Actually I disagree with the 'Yoga is universal' point of view.
Yoga is not merely physical or the empirical, it has a deep rooted connection to the Indic civilisation. This is quite like saying Sanskrit/Panini belongs to the world. On a philosophical scale, sure, I have no problem with that - but in the world we live in, we have to keep emphasising that you can't dismiss Hinduism while claiming the benefits generated by it.

I recently saw some pictures posted within my FB friends circle, of a gora Yoga instructor in Bangalore conducting a workshop to certify yoga instructors, which I thought was appalling. Can you imagine a gora instructor going to China to certify that the locals know Shaolin Kung Fu? We are literally handing over this adhikaara to all and sundry, and we are buying our own IP from outsiders.

Kabir
BGR Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Kabir » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:32 am

The term universal here implies its application is universal just like the sciences, philosophy, mathematics or spirituality and cannot be bound to one particular race or culture like an organised religion. Yoga and meditation is inner engineering so anybody who practices it religiously can master it whether Gora or Indian as it ultimately comes down to blood, flesh, chakras and kundalini which every person possesses. Thats why I said its India's greatest contribution to the world and we must acknowledge that it is propounded by us as a gift to humanity. If outsiders claim it as theirs, of course that should be fought back as they are known thieves to label many great achievements as their own. Yoga's roots are Sanatan and vice-versa and hence it can never be separated, anything that dilutes this basic fact is not yoga at all, which is what should be emphasized. Yoga's universal appeal cannot be denied and for all that matters it is what is bringing more practitioners to the Indic fold than anything else.

Kabir
BGR Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Kabir » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:38 am

BTW, what is wrong with a gora instructor mastering yoga (I hope certified by a recognized body) and then teaching it and certifying others? There is going to be a time when more and more Gautier's and Elst's are going to come to Indian shores to explain our own spiritual importance to us, if we keep ignoring it.
Fighting the Christianisation of Yoga is another topic though which does not belong to this discussion

Shakuni
BGR Newbie
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:30 pm
Location: New York

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Shakuni » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:47 pm

Kabir wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:38 am
BTW, what is wrong with a gora instructor mastering yoga (I hope certified by a recognized body) and then teaching it and certifying others? There is going to be a time when more and more Gautier's and Elst's are going to come to Indian shores to explain our own spiritual importance to us, if we keep ignoring it.
Fighting the Christianisation of Yoga is another topic though which does not belong to this discussion
The problem with a gora certifying Indians that they know Yoga is wrong on many levels - we are not talking about a Gautier or Elst, this is just pure commerce. Why would Indians need to learn their own culture from a gora, and then be certified that they know their own IP, as certified by a gora saheb?

You are simply handing away adhikara/authority. Like I mentioned earlier - a Westerner cannot go to China and certify that they know Kung Fu, for example. Not because of any government regulations, but due to a credibility gap. No one would take him seriously! We on the other hand walk around stating this Vasudaiva Kutumbakam nonsense - the Popes, Musharrafs, Arundhati Roys are not part of any conceivable kutumbakam for Indians who want their culture preserved.
Centuries of enculturation, is why we now have things like Christian Yoga which are simply digesting away our own identity.

fanne
BGR Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:14 pm

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by fanne » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:03 pm

Shakuni ji,
point well taken. Pehaps what Kabir is saying that anyone can learn yoga and master it (Hence it is universal). Some are really good. But the depth, where the union with the self happens (between atma and parmatama), you go beyond agya chakra or go beyond kala and sadguru takes your soul and merges with the paramatma (so then you never return back - true moksha) - That knowledge and method and guru are really hard to find - be it Indian or non-Indian. The real stuff of Yoga, 99% of the practitioner do not know, we go life after life for the grace of almighty (and then who/what is almighty?) may get it. Remember, it is seldom your pursartha or knowledge or practice that gets you there, it is always grace, and who knows how or why or through whom the grace happens. Keep your door and windows open, so that you do not miss it.

fanne
BGR Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:14 pm

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by fanne » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:03 pm

Shakuni ji,
point well taken. Pehaps what Kabir is saying that anyone can learn yoga and master it (Hence it is universal). Some are really good. But the depth, where the union with the self happens (between atma and parmatama), you go beyond agya chakra or go beyond kala and sadguru takes your soul and merges with the paramatma (so then you never return back - true moksha) - That knowledge and method and guru are really hard to find - be it Indian or non-Indian. The real stuff of Yoga, 99% of the practitioner do not know, we go life after life for the grace of almighty (and then who/what is almighty?) may get it. Remember, it is seldom your pursartha or knowledge or practice that gets you there, it is always grace, and who knows how or why or through whom the grace happens. Keep your door and windows open, so that you do not miss it.

Shakuni
BGR Newbie
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:30 pm
Location: New York

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Shakuni » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:23 pm

Fanne ji, on a pure philosophical level, I do concede that Yoga and Yogic philosophy is universal.

That is not my point, however. I would love everyone to see the beauty of our philosophy, but we must guard against people who obviously hate us, using our IP against us. Christian Yoga as an example.
Or for that matter, buying our own traditional knowledge from an outsider, that too at a markup.

Kabir
BGR Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Kabir » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:30 pm

Its because of social media that we are exposed to the globalization of yoga. Westerners have been coming to Indian shores for yoga and seeking since the days of Vivekananda or before, in fact more so in the last century than the present. The lower quality of seekers and commercialization of yoga is not just a capitalist trend it is also very much Indian. Apart from a handful of true yoga and meditation courses most Indian cities have commercialized it now as a weight loss exercise.

After the International Yoga day Indian govt. has been making efforts to safeguard some of the IP related to yoga (similar to Ayurveda), however it is not as easy as it looks

http://www.mondaq.com/india/x/429280/Tr ... g+For+Yoga

India: India's IP Healing For Yoga
Last Updated: 25 September 2015
Article by Shristi Bansal
LexOrbis
LinkedIn Twitter Facebook

Perusing the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's quote "Yoga is India's gift to the world", the Ministry of Science and Technology is attempting to protect yoga as traditional knowledge of the country from international piracy. Around 1,500 yoga poses have been shortlisted and 250 of them are video-graphed to add to the Traditional Knowledge Digital Library (TKDL), which is India's online repository which aims at protecting India's assortment of traditional knowledge (such as Ayurveda, Unani and Sidha systems) as its national heritage. Yoga Experts along with scientists from Council of Scientists and Research Institute have compiled a list of postures with the help of the ancient holy texts such as Mahabharata, Bhagwad Gita and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras etc. which will be added to the TKDL to prevent its monopolization by foreign entities. Yoga postures known as "aasnas" are a part of historical Hindu culture and philosophy that has been developing since time immemorial. It is not only a means of physical fitness but also a spiritual and holistic science. The word itself, linguistically related to "yoke," first appears in the Rig Veda, a sacred Hindu text from around the 15th century B.C., to describe a chariot yoked to horses, in which a felled war hero might ascend to the sun1. Literally, it means "union", derived from the Sanskrit roots denoting joining of inner self to the world, which ultimately leads to self-realization.

Various countries like Russia, China and USA, have had an opportunity to indulge in the lucrative business that yoga offers – by patenting yoga related accessories, for instance, yoga mats, chairs and related devices. It has also led to cropping up of diverse 'genres' of yoga by self-proclaimed yoga gurus (Bikram Choudhury who claims a copyright over 'Hot Yoga', also known as Bikram Yoga which is extremely popular in USA). Online websites like 'YogaGlo' claiming to patent 'method and apparatus for yoga class' and brands designing 'yoga pants' has resulted in USA holding numerous IP related rights for yoga to the tune of millions. However, the Indian courts in Institute of Inner Studies vs Charlotte Anderson2 held that the yoga aasanas and pranic healings which are derivatives of ancient techniques cannot be subjugated to IP laws. It was held that no one can be given copyright or trademark over yoga techniques, as they are not original literary works or dramatic works under the Copyright Act, 1957, and are not capable of distinctiveness under the Trademarks Act, 1999.

Yoga & Copyrights
Discussing the concept of the idea-expression dichotomy the court held that while certain literary aspects may be subject to copyright protection, since both the parties were intending upon practicing postures originating from the same idea i.e. pranic healing, different forms of expression could contain substantial similarities making it essential to analyze the extent of substantial similarities. With regard to the definitions of "dramatic works" and "literary works", the court was of the view that protection under the Copyright Act cannot be extended to include monopoly right over the performance of the asanas of yoga or pranic healing on the strength of the way they are stated in a book as this would be granting a monopoly right to the art or to techniques which have been in the public domain from time immemorial and which are also found in ancient books and texts.

Yoga & Trademarks
Due to the generic and non-distinctive nature of the terms, which is one of the main criteria for trademark registration under Section 9 of the Trademarks Act, a prima facie inference was drawn that the claims of registration were inconsequential as they lacked distinctive character. It was held that there was no case of trademark infringement as the plaintiffs held no monopoly over the terms. Moreover, neither the term was able to distinguish any particular form of Yoga nor able to indicate a source, no protection can be granted could be granted.

The recent declaration of 'International Yoga Day' on June 21, 2015, by the United Nations, saw the world commemorating and promoting Yoga with great enthusiasm. Domestically, policies to bring yoga into police academies, hospitals, and schools are being implemented, in addition to spearheading efforts to bring more foreign investors into the wellness industry as part of his 'Make in India' campaign. While still at a nascent stage, India has taken a progressive step towards protecting its ancient and traditional knowledge. Inclusion of Yoga in the TKDL will ultimately benefit India, this step acting as an impediment to those foreign entities who seek to reap the fruits of India's indigenous heritage. Yoga, one of the greatest untapped assets can be utilized to strengthen the country's aggregation of intellectual property rights. Given the rampant bio-piracy, an organizational approach is needed for safeguarding the national interests. TKDL is shared with the international counter-parts like the European Patent Office, United States Trademark and Patent Office and other international bodies under the non-disclosure pact which will enable aversion of misappropriation and "de-commercialization" of yoga.

Misra
BGR Newbie
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:20 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Misra » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:23 pm

Primus wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:53 am
Misra wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:13 am
Primus wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:26 pm


No, that is not true. There are no 'life processes' that go on after the heart stops beating. Yes, while it beats and there is circulation of blood and the body is kept alive with artificial ventilation as in the case of brain death certain systems can keep working, but the definition of brain death is when brain activity is absent and the body cannot breath on its own, one of the tests (apart from EEGs etc) that determines this is the 'apnea test' meaning once the ventilator is disconnected the respirations stop as the body cannot breathe on its own.

Once breathing and circulation stop (i.e. essentially when the heart stops), all life processes come to a halt within minutes. Nails and hair do not grow, that is a myth, what happens is that the skin and tissues contract giving a false appearance of growth.
from a report in BBC yesterday :oops:

Genes remain active after death

samples were collected up to 24 hrs after death

this should be moved to the yoga thread
We are splitting hairs here.

Genes are microcellular particles and not strictly speaking, 'life processes' which are understood to be features that are recognizable at the bedside by anybody. The brain may remain alive for up to 3 minutes or so after the heart stops beating, other organs take longer to completely 'die' at a cellular level. So technically you can harvest certain organs for up to several hours later, for example livers can be harvested up to 24 hrs later, the cells within are still considered viable. Other tissues such as heart valves, which do not depend upon an intact circulation, can be transplanted months or years later. These cannot be considered 'life processes'.

Anyway, agree, OT for this thread.
genes are not particles though they may be represented as such in text books for the sake of convenience. if genetic activity were not a ‘life process’ you and i would not be alive. there would be no ‘life’

we are not splitting hairs—you are trying to wriggle out of having to admit that you chose to apply a superficial definition of ‘life’ without really giving the term any conscious thought before responding

and yoga demands moving from reflexive/compulsive ‘life processes’ to conscious ones :)

strictly speaking there is no death. just life. please think about that before responding

raghz
BGR Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:22 am
Location: Bengaluru

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by raghz » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:38 am

It would be nice if we could define what exactly we are trying to focus in this thread. The title says "Yoga and Spirituality", invariably religion / race / nationality, etc come into the debate defeating the purpose of the thread.

vishvak
BGR Newbie
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:53 pm
Location: Mumbai

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by vishvak » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:46 pm

If Yoga is universal than people should universally acknowledge that Yoga is unlike race/religion and is part and part of Indian traditions. Always been so. Otherwise it is just another universal idea to loot and plunder - in which the Chinese are not majorly doing the same of loot and plunder. In other words, more of western/gora plunder.

If the Chinese jump in too - or claim exclusive credibility to Kung Fu - it only makes it worse by complicating the matter. In other words, Chinese claim to exclusive ownership of Kung Fu does not justify this loot and plunder.

It is like how the Chinese looting Balochistan does not justify Pakis or earlier the colonial loot of Baloch lands.

Misra
BGR Newbie
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:20 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Misra » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:08 am

the very meaning of yoga precludes getting identified with anything—including tradition, nationality, caste, creed, even gender. one who truly begins the process of de-identification/yoga will easily see that the yoga bounced off western/american shores is simply a commercial phenomenon—one that will be unable to satisfy the fundamental yearning of such a person. others—perhaps those who ‘do’ yoga rather than strive to be ‘in’ yoga, or those who don’t even ‘do’ yoga—are more likely to bemoan the current worldwide commercialization of yoga

the efforts of the likes of rajiv malhotra are to be appreciated to the extent that it generates greater awareness about the totality of yoga. for instance, his wonderful discussion with the clueless woman who started ‘christian’ yoga (available on youtube). however, the best way to ‘reclaim’ yoga would be for more and more indians to begin their own ‘sadhana’—which means a) getting off their asses and making the requisite life long (and beyond :lol: ) commitment and b) stop intellectualizing what can’t be intellectualized

Kabir
BGR Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Kabir » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:18 am

I think people misunderstand the term 'yoga is universal' as 'ownership of yoga is universal'. These are two different things. Comparing yoga to kung fu is like comparing the process of breathing to a ventilator. Yoga is as natural as breathing unless we loose its awareness in modern life. Its roots are para human hence this insecurity to rush for its claim is a bit childish. Yoga cannot be owned, yes we do try and safe guard it from the prying capitalist and BIF forces by putting it through the western process of patents. We cannot own yoga, if some one disagree they may as well define what ownership of Yoga means? however we can get the world to acknowledge that it is Indian just like other aspects of Sanatan like Mahabharat and Ramayan but only if we become ardent practitioners and not shoot from top of trees saying the path you walk is mine. This is not possible practically for nobody can stop another person from practicing yoga and meditation in their free will and master it. Indian subcontinent not just pioneered in yoga but also many other aspects of human life like science and economy. What would help the cause is Indians becoming masters in it and preaching the world rather than sit and complain about other people from harnessing its true potential. This is another trait which lets us down.

Kabir
BGR Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Kabir » Tue May 01, 2018 3:59 am

The World Hindu Congress to be held between 7th to 9th Sept 2018 in Chicago USA
From the WHC website
Held once every four years, WHC’s seven parallel conferences showcase how the values, creativity, and entrepreneurial spirit of the global Hindu community find expression in a variety of spheres, including economic, education, media, organizational, and political, as well as the unique leadership and contributions of Hindu women and youth. WHC also serves as a platform to address critical issues impacting Hindus worldwide, including human rights, discrimination, and cultural assaults.

Hindus have faced insurmountable odds over the last several centuries, yet have been able to nourish and sustain Hindu civilization. Thus, it is incumbent upon this and future generations to build upon their legacy. WHC seeks to rise to this call.
Have there been any tangible contributions by the WHC towards Indic causes over the years or do they discuss issues of national interests like RJB at the seminar? Any idea? David Fernandes and Yogi ji are two notable CMs attending this year along with the likes of Mohan Bhagwat, SriSri etc. Looks like the UPA rule had pushed the WHC on the back burner and there is a resurgence in the BJP era.

Shandilya
BGR Newbie
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:10 pm

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Shandilya » Tue May 01, 2018 8:18 am

Pissing is universal since all humans urinate; eating, sleeping are also universal to people around the world. However baptization is christian, Bar and Bat Mitzvah is Jewish, bushido is Japaneses, haka is maori, and yoga like Sanskrit is Hindu. Yoga like Sanskrit is NOT universal, sadly pissing on ones culture and selling out on ones mother is unique to Hindus. Seems like Yoga is going the way Battle for Sanskrit is.

Kabir
BGR Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Kabir » Tue May 01, 2018 10:12 am

Shandilya wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 8:18 am
Pissing is universal since all humans urinate; eating, sleeping are also universal to people around the world. However baptization is christian, Bar and Bat Mitzvah is Jewish, bushido is Japaneses, haka is maori, and yoga like Sanskrit is Hindu. Yoga like Sanskrit is NOT universal, sadly pissing on ones culture and selling out on ones mother is unique to Hindus. Seems like Yoga is going the way Battle for Sanskrit is.
Selling out Mothers is unique to Hindus? Is that a self admission assuming you are not a chrislamist

Shandilya
BGR Newbie
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:10 pm

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Shandilya » Wed May 02, 2018 7:50 am

Kabir wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:12 am
Shandilya wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 8:18 am
Pissing is universal since all humans urinate; eating, fucking, sleeping are also universal to people around the world. However baptization is christian, Bar and Bat Mitzvah is Jewish, bushido is Japaneses, haka is maori, and yoga like Sanskrit is Hindu. Yoga like Sanskrit is NOT universal, sadly pissing on ones culture and selling out on ones mother is unique to Hindus. Seems like Yoga is going the way Battle for Sanskrit is.
Selling out Mothers is unique to Hindus? Is that a self admission assuming you are not a chrislamist
Bharatmata = mother, next you will say mother is also universal, so selling out on bharatmaa is just sharing her love among siblings be it gora. kalla or Pella. Universal brotherhood bonhomie and whatnot.

from everything i said in my quoted post above, you choose to arrive at the conclusion that I sell mothers!!! Heck, I will not even sell any/your mother even if you were a jihadist, EJ'ist, or an unfortunate son of woman of ill virtue. That just goes against the grain of who I am.

Kabir
BGR Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 am

Re: Yoga and Spirituality Thread

Post by Kabir » Thu May 03, 2018 10:32 pm

Might take a several more janams for you to even start understanding so I will chose to ignore your ignorance. Your choice of words -Urinating - f..ing on a thread like this shows how little respect you have for these things.

Post Reply