Re: Nukkad
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:47 am
is that Malaysian or Filipino head of state ?
I think you’re mistaken. Indian consulates in the US have as its functions to provide passports to Indians, OCI to PIOs, and visas of different categories. By not doing these jobs well does not mean they are providing better services to you as an Indian citizen inside or outside of India. To the contrary, if they can’t provide KJo proper services for an OCI, then tell me how do you expect the consulate to provide passport services to an Indian citizen in the US? This is not a case of one over another.arshyam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:14 amI was one of them and still stand by what I had said then. As far as GoI is concerned, PIOs are not its citizens, so it does not have any legal obligations to them. Yes, they were former citizens, so it grants them the privilege of the OCI/PIO card. But that's all it is - a privilege. It is not a right. Hope you get the difference.KJo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:36 pmOne of the problems I have experienced is that many Indians get very touchy and sensitive when one raises issues in how Indian processes work. For example, 18 months ago, I had trouble renewing the PIO card for my son and the process was equivalent of getting a new card. Many members here justified it, and said that Indian Govt is under no obligation to fix processes for non citizens and began to point to some awful agencies in the US like IRS and Immigration. Is that our excuse? That someone else sucks worse?
As an Indian citizen, I'd rather my govt focus on improving processes impacting my fellow citizens and myself. Selfish? Sure. But I didn't abandon my passport for my own needs, so I will expect something of my govt. It's funny that those who gave up their passport expect similar attention from a govt that's under no obligation to them, hence all this for this card, that card, etc.
Now, let's say that having taken up massa* citizenship, these PIOs do something for the others who want to follow their footsteps, or at least those who visit them, like parents (who are still overwhelmingly Indian citizens) and tourists. How about trying to increase the value of the Indian passport that got PIOs to where they are in the 1st place? Or how about lobbying the govt to make it easier for parents to visit, instead of standing on the street for hours to give a fingerprint, then in another line for a vijja appt? I don't hear any howls of protest on such practices by the 'arrived' folks in massa, do you? It's mostly beneath most MUTU** folks to talk about these things. Change and make these processes more dignified for its citizens, maybe then GoI will listen to your complaints. Maybe.
Now, coming to your point about defending Indian issues - I won't if massa is perfect. It is anything but, except in its own propaganda. I am under no obligation to accept that propaganda without question. And in this instance, you made an absolute claim that "healthcare is a big scam in India". Funnily, I didn't get jacked with $5000+ bills for treatment I didn't need in India, so forgive me if I contest your claim.
*massa is a placeholder, can be any country
** Not saying you are one - but I am sure you know a few such ppl
in that case "who is forcing you to come" line will be taken.
Hold on to your dhoti, there are more sinister things that are in the making,Singha wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:20 pmI can only shudder what the krakatoa explosion must have been like - cosmic in scale - the third eye - twilight of the gods ... the awakening of Azathoth..sleeps eternally, lulled by the music of a lesser deity who must drum for ever, "for if he cease for an instant then He will start awake, and there will be worlds nor gods no more
Nop. In old Europe it is quite good. we pay a monthly amount (depends upon your income) and all medical bills are reimbursed (fully or at least 80%). I have diabetes. All my medications are free. 80% of consultation fee is paid by. I can go to any clinic or doctor. I can claim even gym fee I want ( hate gym, that is another story). I think it is "perfect".Primus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:20 pmHealthcare is a minefield anywhere in the world.
No system is perfect, no country is perfect, no doctor is perfect. The best you can hope for is that when you are ill, you will end up seeing a physician who is honest. He may still be incompetent and kill you, but that is a different problem altogether. The worst that can happen to you is a physician who is not only incompetent but also corrupt and greedy. You then lose a lot more besides your money.
All other things being equal, you are better off in a system where there are extensive checks and balances and licensing requirements to maintain a certain level of functionality both at the level of the physician and the hospital. You may still meet a doctor who is not as capable, but the various agencies that monitor his performance provide some level of confidence to the patient.
In a totally capitated system like in the UK, one hopes that the lack of care, i.e. tests and procedures or expensive medications is because there is no medical indication for it, in a fee-for-service environment like the US (and perhaps India), provision of such care should be because there is a medical need for it without a financial incentive. Hard to know what the truth is unless you are a physician yourself and even then it can be difficult.
One area where there is indeed a difference from the patient's perspective is information. From my experience and that of family, it is much harder to discuss certain things with high-level physicians in India. In the US, for example you could see the Chief of Surgery at Columbia and he will still spend enough time with you in consultation and answer all your questions. The medical record (EMR now) in the US is also much more comprehensive and the system allows patients and family total transparency by law. You can take the entire copy of your chart and all your results with you to another physician or just keep a copy for yourself. There are portals that allow the patient total access to his medical information online.
We are currently dealing with the situation of a close family member in India with advanced cancer that is inoperable. I won't go into the details of the problems that they are having in a well known hospital system in Delhi, but it does reflect on the lack of a proper system. The same things if they happened here would immediately send up a flag and be identified as incompetence with consequences to follow.
A nation's mission in another country first serves the interests of the nation and its own citizens. It's most definitely a case of one over the other - services for citizens get higher priority. It is not India specific. It's the general rule.Mort Walker wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:15 pmI think you’re mistaken. Indian consulates in the US have as its functions to provide passports to Indians, OCI to PIOs, and visas of different categories. By not doing these jobs well does not mean they are providing better services to you as an Indian citizen inside or outside of India. To the contrary, if they can’t provide KJo proper services for an OCI, then tell me how do you expect the consulate to provide passport services to an Indian citizen in the US? This is not a case of one over another.
You may be close to being perfect but all things considered you probably are not. I worked for six years in the British NHS and from what I hear things are much the same as they used to be. I have close friends here from UK and the experience of their family back in the mother country does illustrate several issues.rsingh wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:00 pmNop. In old Europe it is quite good. we pay a monthly amount (depends upon your income) and all medical bills are reimbursed (fully or at least 80%). I have diabetes. All my medications are free. 80% of consultation fee is paid by. I can go to any clinic or doctor. I can claim even gym fee I want ( hate gym, that is another story). I think it is "perfect".Primus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:20 pmHealthcare is a minefield anywhere in the world.
No system is perfect, no country is perfect, no doctor is perfect. The best you can hope for is that when you are ill, you will end up seeing a physician who is honest. He may still be incompetent and kill you, but that is a different problem altogether. The worst that can happen to you is a physician who is not only incompetent but also corrupt and greedy. You then lose a lot more besides your money.
All other things being equal, you are better off in a system where there are extensive checks and balances and licensing requirements to maintain a certain level of functionality both at the level of the physician and the hospital. You may still meet a doctor who is not as capable, but the various agencies that monitor his performance provide some level of confidence to the patient.
In a totally capitated system like in the UK, one hopes that the lack of care, i.e. tests and procedures or expensive medications is because there is no medical indication for it, in a fee-for-service environment like the US (and perhaps India), provision of such care should be because there is a medical need for it without a financial incentive. Hard to know what the truth is unless you are a physician yourself and even then it can be difficult.
One area where there is indeed a difference from the patient's perspective is information. From my experience and that of family, it is much harder to discuss certain things with high-level physicians in India. In the US, for example you could see the Chief of Surgery at Columbia and he will still spend enough time with you in consultation and answer all your questions. The medical record (EMR now) in the US is also much more comprehensive and the system allows patients and family total transparency by law. You can take the entire copy of your chart and all your results with you to another physician or just keep a copy for yourself. There are portals that allow the patient total access to his medical information online.
We are currently dealing with the situation of a close family member in India with advanced cancer that is inoperable. I won't go into the details of the problems that they are having in a well known hospital system in Delhi, but it does reflect on the lack of a proper system. The same things if they happened here would immediately send up a flag and be identified as incompetence with consequences to follow.
You missed the point.Suraj wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:57 amA nation's mission in another country first serves the interests of the nation and its own citizens. It's most definitely a case of one over the other - services for citizens get higher priority. It is not India specific. It's the general rule.
I applied for a passport renewal within the past year at CGISF. The process was extremely smooth, and I had the new passport in hand in under a week from the day I sent the documents to them. The entire process was clearly explained and and interface via the third party was well done. Having obtained UQ, EU, Japan and Singapore visas for work and and leisure within the past year, the Indian passport renewal was easily the best experience, with Singapore visa being the only other pleasant one.
The same is true for US citizen services vs US consular services , as well as Japanese citizen services vs consular services to foreigners. I've seen all three first hand through family , since my son is a dual Japanese and American passport holder. This applies in multiple ways. The passport counter is staffed immediately, with FAR greater politeness and desire to help (by the same person).
I had the funny and absurd experience at SF Japanese Consulate, holding my infant son and getting his Japanese passport from a smiling helpful Japanese consular lady, then switching 2 counters to deal with the SAME lady now looking pokerfaced at *my* visa paperwork, while I was still holding my son with my wife beside. all just because I happened to be dealing with a citizenship matter for my son first and then a visa matter for me.
Enough of this OCI/PIO whining. None of the bious pronouncements about those problems matter in the context of what their own nations offer an Indian passport holder.
Marten wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:56 am>>KJo’s child is Indian origin and the Indian counsulate is suppose to treat him as an Indian citizen, but is not providing services to him.
Nope. OCI is not the same as being a citizen. My taxes pay for the services, and I would rather have them focus first on things that citizens need. You are welcome to continue applying for a visa and visit. We are like this onlee and you are welcome to crib onlee. Just don't make them spend our precious monies on ensuring an awesome experience for you. It sounds rude, but seriously, that is how it must be. It is that way with every other nation.
Now, coming to the matter of online services, over the past 7 years, I have seen a sea change in the manner in which services have been offered and availed. I still do not have a license but that is because you cannot pass the test without paying the chappie. Even for a renewal. Even for accepting an NOC from a different state (that I got for free, without any bribe). I would really like the Bangalore One model to be more widely propagated across all other states. Eliminating the public interfaces ensures lack of opportunities for corruption. Passport applications in India are now a dream. I say this after having applied four times, plus 3 times for SHQ. I don't remember having to pay a bribe at the police station even though they coerced me into going over -- the constable was well read and polite. He even suggested a darshini where I could get a decent kaapi.