Nukkad

General nukkad-style discussions.
This forum is lightly moderated, and members are expected to moderate themselves.
shravanp
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Re: Nukkad

Post by shravanp » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:03 pm

KJo wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:58 am
College in Kerala banned jeans. The women came in lungis.
:lol:

No dhoti shivering by these ladies.

The third one has a cute naughty smile.

Raja
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Raja » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:40 pm

Marten mullah, running Singapore marathon actually (you didn’t notice Modi poster from Sentosa, hain??). Might be my slowest FM ever (entire gang running with a friend who is doing this for the 1st time) so let’s see how far I can push the envelope. :lol:

Marten
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Marten » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:29 am

Jai ho Sir. I was sleep walking. Iow, missed you again. :)

Raja
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Raja » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:27 am

Make sure you lend a helping hand to any lululemon clad sundaris who looks like they need help (you decide if they need a helping hand) :-D

Happy to report that I ran my fastest (4:08) and slowest (6:14) FMs within a span of 1 month. :mrgreen: But good news is the VC lad and friend of ours for whom we had come to run with on his 1st FM finished strong in a hot humid race where the Kenyan who won it ran in 2:22.

Suraj
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Suraj » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:47 am

Mort Walker wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:10 pm
The GoI is under NO obligation to provide OCI services to PIOs. Which is fine, but they are the ones advocating the OCI to PIOs and asking PIOs to invest in India. This is disingenuously advertised. Your child is of Japanese origin and the Japanese counsulate is providing services to him as they see him as a Japanese citizen. KJo’s child is Indian origin and the Indian counsulate is suppose to treat him as an Indian citizen, but is not providing services to him. It would simply be better off to eliminate the OCI and ask every non-citizen to apply for visa under the given category. None of my kids have an OCI since I know it’s a scam, they apply for a visa and travel every year as necessary complying with the law.
KJo was applying for an OCI for his child, right ? After all, this entire topic is about OCI. That means the child is not an Indian citizen and will not be treated as one, for consular purposes. If the child is 'treated as a citizen', there's only one applicable document and that's an Indian passport, which cannot be held in conjunction with any other passport. Anyone dealing with OCI is not an Indian citizen.

OCI despite the name, is not a citizenship. India does not permit dual citizenship. It's just a misnamed permanent resident status, and in fact the most generous such status available, in my opinion. If you give up US citizenship, you don't automatically qualify for green card based on US origin. Neither does EU give anything like that. You can give up Indian citizenship and immediately get an OCI card instead.

PIO does not really exist as a category anymore, as far as I'm aware - it's been superceded by OCI. Regardless, if someone is applying for a PIO card or OCI card, he's not a citizen, and not to be treated as a citizen. OCI applications for special categories will be harder and longer than others. KJo himself is a US citizen by birth IIRC, so his son's paperwork is not trivial compared to the standard case where both parents are NRIs.

Singha
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Singha » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:50 pm

it seems the adoptive parents of 3yo sherin matthews had thrashed her and broken some bones months prior to her death and a doctor had even contacted the govt over it, but it fell into the cracks after a initial call

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2 ... -fractures

remains to be seen if both the parents were thrashing her or just one and if the other one knew.

like typical wannabe mutu(w-mutu) they tried to pass it off on her diet in india prior to adoption.

why is God so needlessly cruel on some people like this child...first abandoned by her parents...and then falling into the clutches of people like these.

Mort Walker
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Mort Walker » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:52 pm

Suraj,

If you read my following post to Marten, I said as much as you did.

OCI provides parity with Indian citizens except public sector employment, military service, voting rights, and running for political positions. Why even have OCI? Just eliminate it as GoI provides a 10 year visitor visa? The reason they have it is to encourage Indian origin investment. If they can’t avail services for OCI in a timely manner than do away with it. Right now Mauritius followed by the US are the two top investors in India. After GST, I wonder if Mauritius will remain as it seems to be a place to bring monies back in after tax evasion.

Suraj
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Suraj » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:59 pm

Mort, this is a really simply concept . OCIs are not treated as citizens for consular purposes, not are they citizens per se. It simply accords treatment on par with citizens while in India. It's a privilege and not a right that citizens have. That's standard process for a permanent residency system, which is what OCI is, except OCI is better than GC because there's no residency requirement, just an ancestry/marital relationship one.

You cannot travel to a third country on OCI. You cannot show up at an Indian consulate in a 3rd country for consular assistance because you're not a citizen; you instead go to one or more of the countries where you have passport(s) from.

It's the same with US GC. You have rights on par with citizens while in US, but it's not a citizenship, but you're not a citizen and have no recourse to consular assistance abroad. The GC card needs to be renewed every 10 years, just as an OCI tied to a 10-year validity US passport does.

Don't get fixated on the name 'OCI'. Despite being called 'permanent resident card', you lose it if you stay outside the US for a period of time. As to 'why have it ?', well speak for yourself. OCI is evidently quite popular from what GoI says :)

Vyoman
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Vyoman » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:35 pm

Yes.. Jai OCI.

Gus
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Gus » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:56 am

converted one kid from PIO to OCI and another from a valid visa to OCI even when visa term had many years left.

with visa you have to apply for extension. i guess mort and family never for stay more than 6 months.

OCI is quite possible the most generous program of its kind for any non-citizens for people who gave up citizenship and for their kids.

Raja
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Raja » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:05 am

Question is, is the OCI process unfriendly. The answer is Yes. Are other equivalent processes such as US GC similarly unfriendly? The answer is Yes. Yet the same people who meekly jump thru all the US GC hoops complain vociferously about the OCI hoops. That bias is what gets my goat.

Suraj
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Suraj » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:30 am

The nearest thing to OCI that I can think of is UK's Right of Abode. It's basically an unconditional permanent residency by ancestral claim, like OCI is.

I have a UK-born parent, and through that I am entitled to apply for UK RoA, though I've never bothered to actually acquire it. It's an entitlement by their law, you either have it by ancestry or family ties or you don't. Neither of these can be confused for citizenship. In fact both look similar - they are permanent but tied to a passport. If the passport expires, you still have UK RoA, but you can't prove it anymore, until you get your new passport endorsed with it. Same for OCI.

Conditional permanent residency like GC or UK's indefinite leave to remain (which is what Mallya is using IIRC) lapses if you're outside the country for a period of time.

Mort Walker
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Mort Walker » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:04 am

This is what the MEA has to say about OCI:
http://www.mea.gov.in/overseas-citizens ... scheme.htm

What it does is that it allows you to more easily invest, buy property, open a bank account, visit national monuments and parks by paying domestic prices, it also allows you to pay domestic prices for airfare too. It also allows you to stay for over 180 days without registering with local police. We travel to desh every year, but don't stay over 180 days as the kids have college and me+SHQ have work. I have had family members who are not OCI and they simply register with local police when staying over 180 days - that too is easy without paying any bribes (at least in Chattisgarh, MP, and Maharashtra).

OCI should be changed to something like "Visa for Indian Origin Persons", they really need to drop the C - citizen part from it. The OCI is advertised by Indian consulates as "easy to get" for Indian origin persons by Indian Consulates in the US. They say it is like getting a tourist visa, but they are slow. I have advised everyone who is of Indian origin in the US to simply get the 10 year tourist visa unless they want to buy property or get into a business venture.

In contrast, the US does not offer any sort of green card, or dual citizenship to those who willingly give up their US citizenship. Perhaps that may be the best thing for India to do too. On a side note, what I find interesting is that the MEA and GoI in attitude are far less rigid than many posters here.

Suraj
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Suraj » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:14 am

Far too much trouble is being taken to nitpick about the name of a permanent residency status and assume various things on the basis of a word in the name. GoI can call it whatever they like, but anyone who's been a GC or RoA should have no problem grasping the concept of OCI, and yet there's endless drivel about why they aren't being treated as a citizen.

This is just mindless literalism - 'oh it says citizen in the name, so I must be treated as a citizen!!' Those making such arguments know a) India does not permit dual citizenship so you cannot have an Indian and another passport and b) an OCI holder by definition holds a foreign passport, i.e. they're not Indian. What's so confusing ? You're offered certain privileges as OCI but you are still a foreigner and not a citizen[/b].

This is really simple. Just because on certain things your privileges match a citizen's rights doesn't make you capable of demanding more. It's a privilege after all.

Sachin
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Sachin » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:46 am

Gents, is Akshayapatra scheme 100% indic? Got a call from one of their staff but his name/e-mail ID did not sound like one of the ISKON followers.

Mort Walker
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Mort Walker » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:58 am

There are two things here.

1. The Indian Consulates who provide services services related to visiting India vary providing those services. Many people are of the opinion that if you're treated like shit by some other country, then Indian consulates can do whatever they want too. Nevermind the OCI process is very easy like applying for a visitor visa.

2. It is not mindless literalism. It is defined in regulation and law. The term 'citizen' is very much of concern. It is NOT a GC or a permanent residency document, but clearly says 'citizen'. The previous term of PIO was correct and the issuance of which, created in 2002, clearly did not say 'citizen' in any document or law. PIO was a creation of the ABVP NDA govt. and it was the Congress govt. in 2005 which changed it to OCI 'Overseas Citizen of India' with the "The Citizenship (Amendment) Act of 2005". This is what defines what an 'Overseas Citizen of India' is in section 7A. The MEA defines it as parity to Indian citizens with exceptions.

Suraj
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Suraj » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:19 am

Exceptions including consular support, or rather the lack of anything like what a citizen is due :)

Mort Walker
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Mort Walker » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:15 pm

Suraj wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:19 am
Exceptions including consular support, or rather the lack of anything like what a citizen is due :)
I can’t find where an OCI will not avail consular support. It appears to provide parity with a regular citizen in this regard.

When OCI was established in 2005, the Congress party codified a 2nd class citizen. The PIO designation was much more accurate. On a side note what is interesting is that from what I can gather, an OCI can request an RTI.

Gus
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Gus » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:36 pm

I really don’t understand what the problem here with OCI...

Don’t like it then don’t apply. Those who have it are very happy with it. The process took me longer because I had to apostille the birth certificate etc and my dd expired and had to get a new one and while all this was being done, the kids 6 month term was getting close to ending so I had to apply for extension and then go back with the application packet after getting extension. I made 4 or 5 trips and the entire process took 3 months but I am actually fine with that because it was procedural and none of it was grossly unfair or stupid. I should have read requirement and gotten the apostille before leaving US. I should have applied early and not close to the 6 month end date. I cannot whine about baboons and babucrazy or whatever when they are following their due process and I did not do my due diligence.

Mort Walker
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Mort Walker » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:59 pm

Gus ji,

The problem is that an OCI is a citizen as defined within the confines of India’s law. As such an OCI has the right to formally complain about the lack of services provided by the GoI or a state government or municipality.

Suraj
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Suraj » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:20 pm

Mort Walker wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:15 pm
I can’t find where an OCI will not avail consular support. It appears to provide parity with a regular citizen in this regard.
We need a facepalm icon here. OCI's categorization cannot be more clear:

An OCI is not a citizen of India, because you hold a FOREIGN PASSPORT and NOT an Indian one.

You're not any kind of citizen, 2nd, 3rd or 4th class. An OCI is not any kind of passport. It offers privileges equivalent to citizens in some matters, but there's no ambiguity that you're in fact NOT a citizen. As long as you hold another passport, there's no way you can be any kind of citizen of India.

What part of that is ambiguous ? It's an elevated residency status, that is all . You have some privileges, but you cannot show up at the Indian Embassy in Peru for help with your OCI card. Use your US or some other passport. You have no consular support. How hard is that to grasp ? Same with green card . I can't use it in a third country for consular support. It's good for entry into US, that is all.

The amount of literalist mis-interpretation of the name is ridiculous. Even GC offers 'treatment on par with citizens' but no one with a GC runs around claiming to be a citizen.

The fundamental issue here is that you have certain privileges on par with citizens, but those are privileges you only get if they're listed someplace. Rights on the other hand you are due by default.

Gus
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Gus » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:46 pm

Mort,

Image

check page 11 and read the comments for 7A. That is where your 'rights' are mentioned for OCI. The exceptions listed in 7B are to those rights.

and it says in 7b, you get (except rights listed in subsection 2), what is specified by notifications in official gazette by central govt.

Please show this notification that gives you consular access rights in other countries, on par with citizens.

KJo
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Re: Nukkad

Post by KJo » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:48 pm

Suraj wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:20 pm
Mort Walker wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:15 pm
I can’t find where an OCI will not avail consular support. It appears to provide parity with a regular citizen in this regard.
We need a facepalm icon here. OCI's categorization cannot be more clear:

An OCI is not a citizen of India, because you hold a FOREIGN PASSPORT and NOT an Indian one.

You're not any kind of citizen, 2nd, 3rd or 4th class. An OCI is not any kind of passport. It offers privileges equivalent to citizens in some matters, but there's no ambiguity that you're in fact NOT a citizen. As long as you hold another passport, there's no way you can be any kind of citizen of India.

What part of that is ambiguous ? It's an elevated residency status, that is all . You have some privileges, but you cannot show up at the Indian Embassy in Peru for help with your OCI card. Use your US or some other passport. You have no consular support. How hard is that to grasp ? Same with green card . I can't use it in a third country for consular support. It's good for entry into US, that is all.

The amount of literalist mis-interpretation of the name is ridiculous. Even GC offers 'treatment on par with citizens' but no one with a GC runs around claiming to be a citizen.

The fundamental issue here is that you have certain privileges on par with citizens, but those are privileges you only get if they're listed someplace. Rights on the other hand you are due by default.
Irrelevant.
The process is godawful and that does not change. I could be a citizen of Timbuktoo and the fact does not change that the process for OCI renewal is illogical and totally awful.

Mort Walker
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Re: Nukkad

Post by Mort Walker » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:57 pm

Suraj,

Why a facepalm? The law seems unclear and is subject to clarification by Gazette. It has happened in 2009 regarding acquisition of agricultural land. Until then...

The MEA states parity with exception. They or the law does not say equivalency. It is not like a GC. It is an abridged citizenship of India. If I as US citizen and OCI show up at an Indian mission anywhere in the world and tell them I’ve lost my OCI card, they should avail replacement services as such if I have other credentials.

I would actually guess the mission would help me out more than posters on this forum.

anishns
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Re: Nukkad

Post by anishns » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:21 pm


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