Indian IT Industry

News and Discussions about politics, current affairs, international relations, economy, elections, state level politics etc.
This forum is strictly moderated.
Shakuni
BGR Newbie
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:30 pm
Location: New York

Re: Indian IT Industry

Post by Shakuni » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:38 pm

I would never hire a guy on a union. This socialist mindset needs to be crushed in innovation industries.

morem
BGR Newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Indian IT Industry

Post by morem » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:33 pm

Sachin wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:37 am
MehtaRahulC wrote:IOW, State Govt could have denied registration of this trade union of IT people. But the fact that State Govt allowed shows that apex men in Govt such as Fadnavis etc now want to break IT sector in India.
The Factory Act of 1948 may have sections which are explicitly excluded for IT "factories". But does any act forbid the formation of a trade union? I don't think so. So why should Fadnavis (or any other CM) deny the formation of a new union? I have seen such Associations getting formed up in Bengaluru also. But all said and done, IT employees as such cannot be "unionised" like the labour class of the 1950s-1970s. The IT companies know really well on what carrots & sticks to be applied for each employee/IT worker and get them to start backstabbing each other.
Deans wrote:There is little attempt to look beyond engineering and recruit for e.g. B.Sc grads who have the same ability and may have more realistic salary expectations.
Vegetable Oil.Co actually pioneered such a scheme (with I guess KJo's favourite company also initially doing the same). Veg.Oil.Co took some good B.Sc graduates as "apprentices" and along with a job, also offered them a M.S course from BITS Pilani. During the 2002-2006 time period, these chaps were really brilliant and could beat any B.Tech-wallah hands down. Many such B.Sc graduates slogged (work & study), got their MS degrees and have now gone abroad. Some where after 2010 or so, this scheme started getting watered down. This scheme AFAIK was formally closed in 2014 or so. Veg.Oil.Co then also started hiring Diploma holders; pay scale drastically reduced but with a higher "shift allowance" to put them exclusively on Support and Maintenance projects. All I could make out from all this was that for the "Software Development" now being done in India, a good B.Sc or Diploma holder with good attitude, and good English comprehending skills is what is required.
I can personally attest to the Wipro BSc scheme. It was called WASE and had some of the best performers I had seen in Wipro , in my BU at the time (2006-2010)

KJo
Forum Moderator
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:36 pm

Re: Indian IT Industry

Post by KJo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:18 am

JohnTitor wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:52 pm
Mehta ji , it matters little whether these people are in a unuon ir not. If they dont perform, they will be fired. Unionisation works only in govt jobs because babus are there to fill their pockets. Private companies are there to make a profit.

In the UK many bank employees are part of a union too, but they cannot go on strike etc. Union only helps resolve pay disputes , unfair dismissal etc

On the other hand, being in a union is likely to work against you in india because future employers will not hire you.

My father owns and runs an electronic manufacturing company in KA and I have seen how things changed when a union came. The workers were all like a family until the an outside union guy caused trouble and called for strike, almost a lockout. After that, the relationship went south and became very formal and transactional. Every now and then workers would do "tool down strike" which basically meant they would not work but management has to pay their lazy behinds. The only way to get rid of them was when they were caught stealing or doing something criminal.

Workers can have genuine grievances like being unfairly fired/laid off/favoritism etc and while a union can help in that, most often it just breeds worthless workers and Govt babu attitudes. "kaam nahin karoonga. Kya karloge? fire? ha ha". I saw a lot of attitude while working with these outsourcing guys, just imagine if their jobs were fire-proof.

Bad idea overall and will cause more harm to the Indian IT industry.

Shakuni
BGR Newbie
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:30 pm
Location: New York

Re: Indian IT Industry

Post by Shakuni » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:15 am

morem wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:33 pm

I can personally attest to the Wipro BSc scheme. It was called WASE and had some of the best performers I had seen in Wipro , in my BU at the time (2006-2010)
My cousin was at Vegetable Oil Co too, freshly out of his BSc in Physics from a small town college. This was around 1998/99, and then he left for the Khanate in about a year and a half.

abhik
BGR Newbie
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Indian IT Industry

Post by abhik » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:13 pm

Don't see what is wrong in IT unions (Ok may be that's not the right term). Over the last 2 decades the real pay for IT munnas has eroded to below (or at best on par) blue collar labor, yet they have no real safeguards. And IT companies behavior has been no better than cronies, gobbling up huge tax incentives, land etc., bending and breaking rules at every opportunity to squeeze out more and more profits.

MehtaRahulC
BGR Member
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:34 am
Location: Ahmedabad
Contact:

Re: Indian IT Industry

Post by MehtaRahulC » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:15 pm

KJo wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:18 am
My father owns and runs an electronic manufacturing company in KA and I have seen how things changed when a union came. The workers were all like a family until the an outside union guy caused trouble and called for strike, almost a lockout. After that, the relationship went south and became very formal and transactional. Every now and then workers would do "tool down strike" which basically meant they would not work but management has to pay their lazy behinds. The only way to get rid of them was when they were caught stealing or doing something criminal.

Workers can have genuine grievances like being unfairly fired/laid off/favoritism etc and while a union can help in that, most often it just breeds worthless workers and Govt babu attitudes
Thanks for supporting my view that unionism in IT will bring down productivity etc
.
Now as per law till 2014, Govt has to pass a union application if unit is electronic MANUFACTRING. So it falls under definition of factory
.
But till 2014, Govts and Labor Courts said that IT professionals are NOT workman under labor laws such as Industrial Dispute Act (google "Industrial Dispute Act India IT professional workman" ). So even if they form a trade union, then also there was no much use. But recently, labor courts has given judgments and Govts have issued Gazette Notifications , and KN Govt even changes labor laws which give same status to IT professional as "workman" in factories !!
.
So now union forming giving advantage to these workman. And so unionism will rise.
.
My point is --- there has been change in law, written law as well as the way labor courts implement it. And so unionism in IT business will rise. Only plus point is --- now IT company owners will understand importance of laws. Till date, IT company owners have believed that their success is only due to their merits. Now they will appreciate the fact Rajiv Gandhi amended Factory Act in 1980s which made data processing business outside the definition of labor laws, and so IT business didnt face labor problems. And they will appreciate the fact that all Govts now --- be congress or BJP or AAP, are now hell bent on giving "workman" status to IT professional, including data entry people.

-----
abhik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:13 pm
Don't see what is wrong in IT unions (Ok may be that's not the right term). Over the last 2 decades the real pay for IT munnas has eroded to below (or at best on par) blue collar labor, yet they have no real safeguards. And IT companies behavior has been no better than cronies, gobbling up huge tax incentives, land etc., bending and breaking rules at every opportunity to squeeze out more and more profits.
A large number of IT companies got zero benefits from Govt - be land or tax benefits. The only benefit they got was in exports - which everyone used to get. In fact, consider any company below 100 employees, most of them are self made. There are bad apples or rather bad pumpkins like Infosys/TCS which are real estate giants in reality and not really IT company. But solution imo is to tax their land. Not promote unionism in IT business

If unionism in India's IT business grows, we will become less competitive than even Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, forget Vietnam and China. IT company can lose export business if they cant meet deadlines. And unions are good at messing deadlines. So unionism in IT business can kill a big chunk of exports.

KJo
Forum Moderator
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:36 pm

Re: Indian IT Industry

Post by KJo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:40 pm

abhik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:13 pm
Don't see what is wrong in IT unions (Ok may be that's not the right term). Over the last 2 decades the real pay for IT munnas has eroded to below (or at best on par) blue collar labor, yet they have no real safeguards. And IT companies behavior has been no better than cronies, gobbling up huge tax incentives, land etc., bending and breaking rules at every opportunity to squeeze out more and more profits.

There is nothing "wrong" morally or ethically in Unions, but you must be aware of the pitfalls.
Why has the real pay of IT munnas gone down? Zimble onlee. Too much supply (every D-grade student given jobs and pushed into IT) and not enough demand to meet it. This situation is different from 1999 when demand was huge and India was ramping up its IT armies so supply was short.

There are a few factors among many others:
1. Indian IT companies are cheaper not really that cheap anymore. Normal economics.
2. 12 hours around the world. Is it worth the delay?
3. Quality average to poor. Work frequently has to be re-done at a later date. Penny wise, pound foolish?
4. Many other countries competing for the business than India had a monopoly on. Drives hourly rates down.
5. Too many D-grade employees with huge expectations for raise/bonus/promotions. Coupled with sky high prices in India.
6. US junta and POTUS Trump does not look kindly towards outsourcing.


I am not sure what safeguards you are talking about or expecting. There are no safeguards anywhere in the world. Not in the US either. If a company loses a contract, they lose the revenue. So they have to lay people off. How can they continue to pay? How should Unions resolve this?

Deans
BGR Newbie
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:46 am

Re: Indian IT Industry

Post by Deans » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:17 am

KJo, That's a nice summing up.

The only job safeguard is for an employee to keep abreast of current technology, or be at the cutting edge of a particular skill.
That does not happen in India with the bulk of our IT workforce. If China were to unleash 2 million people who can do basic coding in English, our
IT industry will be gutted.

Post Reply