Election Discussions - National, State etc

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Vikas
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Vikas » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:16 pm

^^ And Hindus should know what they want from Govt otherwise EJ's masquerading as Hindus and RoP-Pasand sickular political crowd will always take them for a ride. If you don't know what you want, you will have to accept, whatever is given to you.
I am not saying Hindus should be driven by single point agenda like Islamists do, but should always demand something around Hindu religion besides other things from the political leadership.
Be explicit and ask for Kashi and Mathura from all the parties in UP as part of bargain or maybe get TTD free of govt clutches if CBN or YSR wants votes of Telgu bidda

Rational and educated Hindus are some of the worst critics of NM, you have a good sample of them on BGR itself. Nothing wrong with that except for like democracy, any other option is completely horrible and pungent.

Primus
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:49 pm

^
Maybe it does not apply to me directly, for I left the Pitrabhumi a very long time ago and my opinion therefore may not represent the Hindus living in India at present.

However, as a Hindu citizen of India I would first and foremost want the government of the land to be TRULY secular. I don't need or want any special status for Hindus, I don't want any preferential treatment. The 'Church' ideally should be separate from the 'State'.

Second, I would want the government to be fair in its treatment of its citizens, working for the development and betterment of society as a whole. While I support Capitalism, I would want the society to be as liberal as it can get.

And yes, It would be great to have Kashi and Mathura back, but that is something I would be willing to wait for and have it settled by the courts, IF (and it's a big IF, I know) the courts can be deemed to be impartial. RJB is almost there and I do hope the verdict comes out in favor of Hindus because there is, IMHO, enough evidence to support their claim.

All of this will take a long time to accomplish and I believe the BJP is the only government that can get it done. Which is why even though I cannot vote for it, I support it ideologically.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by RamaY » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:12 pm

Primus wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:49 pm
^
Maybe it does not apply to me directly, for I left the Pitrabhumi a very long time ago and my opinion therefore may not represent the Hindus living in India at present.

However, as a Hindu citizen of India I would first and foremost want the government of the land to be TRULY secular. I don't need or want any special status for Hindus, I don't want any preferential treatment. The 'Church' ideally should be separate from the 'State'.

Second, I would want the government to be fair in its treatment of its citizens, working for the development and betterment of society as a whole. While I support Capitalism, I would want the society to be as liberal as it can get.

And yes, It would be great to have Kashi and Mathura back, but that is something I would be willing to wait for and have it settled by the courts, IF (and it's a big IF, I know) the courts can be deemed to be impartial. RJB is almost there and I do hope the verdict comes out in favor of Hindus because there is, IMHO, enough evidence to support their claim.

All of this will take a long time to accomplish and I believe the BJP is the only government that can get it done. Which is why even though I cannot vote for it, I support it ideologically.
This shows fundamental lack of understanding of what is being Hindu and how a Hindu civilization uses State to enforce Dharma. What you wrote is nothing Hindu but imposition of Christian colonization over a Hindu nation. Confused Hindus shouldn't have any say in national policy definition or implementation.

I will write a detailed post if interested.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Chandragupta » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:16 am

RamaY wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:12 pm
Primus wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:49 pm
^
Maybe it does not apply to me directly, for I left the Pitrabhumi a very long time ago and my opinion therefore may not represent the Hindus living in India at present.

However, as a Hindu citizen of India I would first and foremost want the government of the land to be TRULY secular. I don't need or want any special status for Hindus, I don't want any preferential treatment. The 'Church' ideally should be separate from the 'State'.

Second, I would want the government to be fair in its treatment of its citizens, working for the development and betterment of society as a whole. While I support Capitalism, I would want the society to be as liberal as it can get.

And yes, It would be great to have Kashi and Mathura back, but that is something I would be willing to wait for and have it settled by the courts, IF (and it's a big IF, I know) the courts can be deemed to be impartial. RJB is almost there and I do hope the verdict comes out in favor of Hindus because there is, IMHO, enough evidence to support their claim.

All of this will take a long time to accomplish and I believe the BJP is the only government that can get it done. Which is why even though I cannot vote for it, I support it ideologically.
This shows fundamental lack of understanding of what is being Hindu and how a Hindu civilization uses State to enforce Dharma. What you wrote is nothing Hindu but imposition of Christian colonization over a Hindu nation. Confused Hindus shouldn't have any say in national policy definition or implementation.

I will write a detailed post if interested.
+100

Primus ji is well meaning but his understanding of being a 'Hindu' is quite off. Still playing by the rules set over us by Islamo-Christian systems.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:55 am

^

Perhaps it is good then that I cannot influence things in India :D

Seriously though, I have read all the holy books, from the Koran to the Bible and of course our own. I have listened to and watched all the 'Gurus' on television and Youtube. I admit I have not studied in a Hindu seminary like the Ramakrishna Mission schools and have never been a member of the RSS. So it is certainly possible that I missed something somewhere and my knowledge and understanding of what it is to be a Hindu may not be as deep as some here.

I have also traveled all over India and seen with my own eyes the destruction of the Hindu temples and icons, read all the VOI books, so my blood too boils when I think of the atrocities committed against our ancestors.

However, I have lived life long enough to realize that the most important thing is to be human. Dogmatism of any kind is bad for humanity. I am also fundamentally a scientist and unable therefore to subscribe to religion the way many people do. I am thus more a spiritual and cultural Hindu at heart.

One of the things that remains unanswered by the proponents of what I see here is how we are going to deal with 200 million muslims of India. They are not going away and they are not going to convert back to Hinduism. They need to be accommodated into the fabric of the nation in a manner which avoids genocide on a massive scale. I have not yet heard of a solution to this problem. My own belief is that the only way forward is a truly secular polity, appeasement of the majority or minority (the latter is what has happened all these years) is not going to work.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Supratik » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:36 pm

Post-1947 there can only be limited secularism in India. You cannot have your Islamic Pak and Bdesh which your grandfather's generation created and expect all others to give you secularism in India as per your convenience. India should be a rule based society running on the principles of dharma where you can freely practice whatever is your religion subject to the rule of law and without discrimination. Trying to extrapolate secularism imported from the west where it developed due to genocidal conflict between state and church and various sects is not necessary in India. Neither should India be a theocratic state like Pak or Saudi. Need to find a balance. And definitely what passes off as secularism in India should die out.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Sachin » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:57 pm

Primus wrote:I am thus more a spiritual and cultural Hindu at heart.
To be frank, what I see around these days is that many "Hindus" are just Hindus because they were born to Hindu parents. And what is gaining prominence (with many Hindus also now coming up the economic ladder) is the "ritual & tradition" part of it. That is spend money on stuff like temple elephants, temple festivals etc. etc. Nothing much is done to guide a Hindu on spiritual terms. So much so that many modern day Hindus do not even have some form of Hindu spiritual activity at their home. Compare this with other religions, when there is a neat & tidy mechanism to understand that religion and can even think spiritually on those religious lines. Cultural & Spirtiual Hinduism needs to be spread, rather than this "spend money lavishly at temples" scheme. The "seculars" off course would play their best when it comes to oppose the spread of Cultural & Spirtiual Hinduism.
Supratik wrote:India should be a rule based society running on the principles of dharma where you can freely practice whatever is your religion subject to the rule of law and without discrimination. .... And definitely what passes off as secularism in India should die out.
"Secularism" in India is pretty much "Organised majority religions running rough shod the majority religion and its followers". Perhaps we should keep it simple and try to get a governance model where religion & politics/government do not have a say in each other's existence. Which is again a bit tough ask, as pretty much every caste today is also involved in politics. Which means keeping religion away from Indian politics may not happen any time soon.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by KL Dubey » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:32 pm

After the "ab kya hoga??" pessimism here, I decided to talk to some chaiwallas who sell kesariya chai. BJP and NDA will sweep the 2019 elections with more than 50% vote. When you have 51%, it doesn't matter whether the 49% guys were fighting separately or in MTB.

Primus
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:32 pm

Supratik wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:36 pm
................India should be a rule based society running on the principles of dharma where you can freely practice whatever is your religion subject to the rule of law and without discrimination. Trying to extrapolate secularism imported from the west where it developed due to genocidal conflict between state and church and various sects is not necessary in India. Neither should India be a theocratic state like Pak or Saudi. Need to find a balance. And definitely what passes off as secularism in India should die out.
This is exactly what I mean. I have no interest in where the philosophy comes from. What has happened since 1947 in India has to stop and what is needed in its place is TRUE secularism which I define as freedom of religion, freedom of worship, no appeasement of any religious minority or majority, no influence of any religion on the law of the land and no obstruction to the enforcement of said law.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:16 pm

Sachin wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:57 pm
Primus wrote:I am thus more a spiritual and cultural Hindu at heart.
To be frank, what I see around these days is that many "Hindus" are just Hindus because they were born to Hindu parents. And what is gaining prominence (with many Hindus also now coming up the economic ladder) is the "ritual & tradition" part of it. That is spend money on stuff like temple elephants, temple festivals etc. etc. Nothing much is done to guide a Hindu on spiritual terms. So much so that many modern day Hindus do not even have some form of Hindu spiritual activity at their home. Compare this with other religions, when there is a neat & tidy mechanism to understand that religion and can even think spiritually on those religious lines. Cultural & Spirtiual Hinduism needs to be spread, rather than this "spend money lavishly at temples" scheme. The "seculars" off course would play their best when it comes to oppose the spread of Cultural & Spirtiual Hinduism.
Rituals and traditions were never meant to replace true belief in Dharma, but sadly have become the cornerstone of Hindu practice among the masses, especially the rich folks. I am not sure that other religions do a better job, if anything dogma is even more strictly enforced and there is really no true 'spirituality' in the revealed religions. In Christianity for example, the entire edifice is built upon the presumption of divinity that is bestowed upon JC because of his passion on the cross, his death and subsequent resurrection. If you do not accept or believe in that, you cannot be a Christian. I won't comment on Islam, there is no need to.

Hinduism is independent of belief in any specific character, be it God or his messenger, Human or otherwise. It is independent of any specific act or miracle. If you think about it, it is a system that is way beyond anything the Western world has ever contemplated. Sadly, our own intelligentsia has ignored it willfully all these years.
Supratik wrote:India should be a rule based society running on the principles of dharma where you can freely practice whatever is your religion subject to the rule of law and without discrimination. .... And definitely what passes off as secularism in India should die out.
Sachin wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:57 pm
"Secularism" in India is pretty much "Organised majority religions running rough shod the majority religion and its followers". Perhaps we should keep it simple and try to get a governance model where religion & politics/government do not have a say in each other's existence. Which is again a bit tough ask, as pretty much every caste today is also involved in politics. Which means keeping religion away from Indian politics may not happen any time soon.
In a truly egalitarian society there would be a set of laws that govern the welfare of its citizens and are enforced without influence from any specific entity. It would apply equally to the rich or the poor, the young or the old, regardless of gender, race or religion. IMHO there is no such nation in the world, though some come close.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by srikumar » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:07 pm

KL Dubey wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:32 pm
After the "ab kya hoga??" pessimism here, I decided to talk to some chaiwallas who sell kesariya chai. BJP and NDA will sweep the 2019 elections with more than 50% vote.
...aur agar aisa nahin hua na, tho usko kahenge ki poora KLPD hua. :lol: (sorry could not resist...BTW you should have kept da P mon').

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Vikas » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:10 am

KL ji, What credibility a chaiwala has when it comes to predicting elections. If you meet only those 49 people who are going to vote against BJP, you will feel like a Tsunami against NM sarkaar.

PS: Where is the politics that Modi Ji promised in his 5th year. Instead BJP has become reactive to whatever CA & Vatican are driving.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by sagrawal » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:22 am

Vikas wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:10 am

PS: Where is the politics that Modi Ji promised in his 5th year. Instead BJP has become reactive to whatever CA & Vatican are driving.
My GHQ asked me the same question. Modi ji said development for first 4 years and politics in last year. His development report card looks great but where is the punishment for people who looted this country for so long?

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Sachin » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:42 am

Primus wrote:If you think about it, it is a system that is way beyond anything the Western world has ever contemplated. Sadly, our own intelligentsia has ignored it willfully all these years.
I feel some where down the line (when?? I can't say) the true spirituality in Hinduism was ignored, with every one just focusing on the outward aspects (i.e spend money, pray etc.). Today for a Hindu a big question is who can guide him on the true aspects of his religion and make him self confident? The friendly neighbourhood priest out there is of no use. He is there because he may not have got a good job else where. I see some changes where I see there are a few men focused on spirituality (and not from the so called priest communities) who have been able to mentor people on spiritual lines. But off course they have all been given a title of Sanghi.
Vikas wrote:PS: Where is the politics that Modi Ji promised in his 5th year. Instead BJP has become reactive to whatever CA & Vatican are driving.
sagrawal wrote:My GHQ asked me the same question. Modi ji said development for first 4 years and politics in last year. His development report card looks great but where is the punishment for people who looted this country for so long?
Yes, even I was expecting more on the political front from Na.Mo and the BJP. But things may not be that bad either. When BJP plays "politics", we cannot expect the opponents NOT to do the same. It can never be a one-sided match. May be it is because of BJP's political moves, that we see many other "political activities" also coming up. Two Catholic Bishops have now started doubting India's democracy. They were all fine and dandy for the last four years and before. Kejriwal who promised Shiela Dixit a cell in Bihar is now talking about supporting Congress :lol:. Pawarful people are even inviting Shiv Sena to join hands with them. All these are reactions to BJP playing politics.

On GHQs asking for punishments. Women in general (unless they are lawyers or in the police) have no clue on how the Indian justice system works. Right from asking if E-Mails can be used to file FIRs, all the way to seeking instant justice (in a way which pleases them) is the norm. The punishment is not going to come in any time soon, but I see some traction out there. Chidambaram is now having a daily planner listing the various courts he needs to visit every day, followed by the revenue intelligence officials he needs to meet. Shashi Tharoor also trying to get a similar daily planner now. Ra.Ga and So.Ga are actually out on bail in the National Herald case. Kejriwal is also having a daily planner listing out whom should he apologise to on a given day.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by JohnTitor » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 am

I don't want to start a whole debate on secularism and Hinduism, but I feel I should comment on it since posts here are discussing it.

Those wanting to separate "church from state" clearly don't understand Hinduism because Hinduism is all about dharma. Dharma affects all aspects of life, be it personal or public. However, Hinduism by it's very nature is "secular" in the sense that there is tolerance for multiple beliefs even if conflicting.

Further, unlike other religions out there, Hinduism is all about experience and not reading. You can read all the books you like but that doesn't mean you know anything about dharma or the true nature of the universe. Those truly in the know are yogis, of whom there are many. Though you can't find them on the streets you can find them if you know how (from my own experience). The trouble is that people confuse religion with spirituality - the latter guides the former. And the rituals are a consequence of spiritual understanding. Merely following the rituals without understanding is akin to clothing and bathing a dead body (actual words used by a yogi I know).

Ideally, Bharat should be governed by dharma, but that is unlikely to happen anytime soon. Every passing day, India and Indians are losing touch with this.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by hanumadu » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:22 am

I do see a lot more activity by Modi and BJP. They started a 'Sampark for Samarthan' where BJP leaders are visiting various prominent persons across the country, explaining what they did and asking for their support.
There was much publicity on what NDA2 did in their term during the 4th year anniversary and it is still continuing.
Modi appearing on TV and meeting with Ujwala, Indira Awas Yojana beneficiaries.
Yesterday he met startup heads from across India that benefited from Startup India via teleconferencing.
Amit Shah met Uddhav Thackeray, may be for alliance for the 2019 elections.

Not sure if any of the corrupt will be jailed or any HIndutva agenda will be fulfilled.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Supratik » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:34 pm

I believe "Saaf niyat, sahi vikas' clips have started on TV. They should be varied in that target specific blocs e.g. Jan Dhan is not going to influence middle class and Ease of doing business is not going to affect the poor. Ground contact will be vital.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Rahul M » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:38 pm

OT.

Supratik ji, please have a look if you already haven't.
https://forum.bharatganrajya.com/viewto ... 238#p10238

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Supratik » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:44 pm

Ok saw that.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:07 pm

JohnTitor wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 am

Those wanting to separate "church from state" clearly don't understand Hinduism because Hinduism is all about dharma. Dharma affects all aspects of life, be it personal or public. However, Hinduism by it's very nature is "secular" in the sense that there is tolerance for multiple beliefs even if conflicting.
JT, that is exactly what I mean. Dharma is as good a system of separating the 'church' from the 'state' as can be, it teaches not just tolerance but acceptance and respect for all things, all humans and all faiths/beliefs. And that is exactly what I would like in an ideal society.
Further, unlike other religions out there, Hinduism is all about experience and not reading. You can read all the books you like but that doesn't mean you know anything about dharma or the true nature of the universe. Those truly in the know are yogis, of whom there are many. Though you can't find them on the streets you can find them if you know how (from my own experience). The trouble is that people confuse religion with spirituality - the latter guides the former. And the rituals are a consequence of spiritual understanding. Merely following the rituals without understanding is akin to clothing and bathing a dead body (actual words used by a yogi I know).
I agree, it is like learning to be a doctor without seeing patients. However, you can certainly learn a lot about human physiology, anatomy, biochemistry, pharmacology, IOW most of the basic disciplines in medicine simply from books. In fact you do not get to see patients without learning all this first, for several years, as any medical student will tell you.

Similarly you can learn the basics about spirituality and Dharma from good books and other sources of learning.

The problem I have with Gurus is that almost all I've met in real life are charlatans. The moment I hear of 'yog shakti' which gives them special powers of prescience or the ability to materialize objects out of thin air, I run the other way. The scientific mind in my head will not allow me to accept any of these 'extra abilities' that these Gurus are supposed to have acquired through the process of 'meditation'. I can understand their having knowledge, wisdom, a special 'insight' even, but no 'magical' abilities.

I suppose I have not met the right person yet.
Ideally, Bharat should be governed by dharma, but that is unlikely to happen anytime soon. Every passing day, India and Indians are losing touch with this.
With this I agree completely.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by KL Dubey » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:57 pm

Vikas wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:10 am
KL ji, What credibility a chaiwala has when it comes to predicting elections.
:rotfl: I guess you thought I literally talked to a "chaiwalla".

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by KL Dubey » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:02 pm

srikumar wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:07 pm
KL Dubey wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:32 pm
After the "ab kya hoga??" pessimism here, I decided to talk to some chaiwallas who sell kesariya chai. BJP and NDA will sweep the 2019 elections with more than 50% vote.
...aur agar aisa nahin hua na, tho usko kahenge ki poora KLPD hua. :lol: (sorry could not resist...BTW you should have kept da P mon').
True, dat. I wuz tryna keep it, but ran into some bad juju. Afta dat big-azz BRF site crash I couldn't log in with my old ID nor create a new account with the same ID. So dropped da P and kept it hustlin'.

You could think of the new ID as still "KLP Dubey" but with the P silent, as in "psychology".

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Vikas » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:03 pm

KL Dubey wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:57 pm
Vikas wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:10 am
KL ji, What credibility a chaiwala has when it comes to predicting elections.
:rotfl: I guess you thought I literally talked to a "chaiwalla".
Illai Saar, I do get the Chaiwala reference. I was alluding to the Kesariya Chaiwala when even God cant predict the state of mind of Hindu voter.

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Misra » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:28 pm

Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:07 pm

I suppose I have not met the right person yet.
correct—you may not be ready/may not have prepared yourself enough/may not have asked yourself the ‘right’ questions deeply enough for the right person/guru to find you

that’s one way it works—apparently some true yogis/gurus are always itching to find capable disciples

there is ‘knowledge’ and then there is one who is ‘qualified to know’. (this is noted even by the embattled shri shashi tharoor (of the congress) in his recent review of the latest book on adi shankaracharya by the politically hedging shri pawan varma (of the JD(U)). it appears that the good shankaracharya has dedicated 581 verses in ‘Vivekachudamani’ about the qualities a student of the vedanta should possess)

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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm

Misra wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:28 pm
Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:07 pm

I suppose I have not met the right person yet.
correct—you may not be ready/may not have prepared yourself enough/may not have asked yourself the ‘right’ questions deeply enough for the right person/guru to find you

that’s one way it works—apparently some true yogis/gurus are always itching to find capable disciples

there is ‘knowledge’ and then there is one who is ‘qualified to know’. (this is noted even by the embattled shri shashi tharoor (of the congress) in his recent review of the latest book on adi shankaracharya by the politically hedging shri pawan varma (of the JD(U)). it appears that the good shankaracharya has dedicated 581 verses in ‘Vivekachudamani’ about the qualities a student of the vedanta should possess)
I guess I need to pass an 'entrance exam' like I did to get into med school, else the enlightened Guru will not see me though he sees everything else 8-)

This is the kind of 'secret sauce' recipe that I object to. It reminds me of the Bal Yogeshwar story many years ago who my cousins used to literally worship (they had his photo in their mandir at home). They were part of his 'chosen ones' and he had whispered the 'secret mantra' into their ears which supposedly had taken them into another state of existence. When I asked what this mantra was and if they could whisper it in my ear too, I was told I was not ready and only 'Maharaj Ji' could do this if he decided I was the right candidate. A few years later the Maharaj Ji married his white follower who was 7 yrs older than him. Needless to say the photo disappeared from my cousin's home and they never spoke about him again.

Seriously though and from a purely scientific perspective, I would probably derive more spiritual/psychological benefit from a controlled and guided experience with teonanacatl or something similar. There is enough research in neuroscience to suggest that the 'doors of perception' may truly be opened with some psychedelics and perhaps this is what some yogis and seers are able to do naturally, with or without the aid of 'herbal' products. They may well have the capability of releasing a natural ligand for the 5HT-2a receptor through meditation or otherwise. Whether this enables them to experience and understand the world differently I don't know.

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