Election Discussions - National, State etc

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srikumar
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by srikumar » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:17 am

KL Dubey wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:02 pm
srikumar wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:07 pm
KL Dubey wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:32 pm
After the "ab kya hoga??" pessimism here, I decided to talk to some chaiwallas who sell kesariya chai. BJP and NDA will sweep the 2019 elections with more than 50% vote.
...aur agar aisa nahin hua na, tho usko kahenge ki poora KLPD hua. :lol: (sorry could not resist...BTW you should have kept da P mon').
True, dat. I wuz tryna keep it, but ran into some bad juju. Afta dat big-azz BRF site crash I couldn't log in with my old ID nor create a new account with the same ID. So dropped da P and kept it hustlin'.
AIn't no problom mon...., izz kool....itzaalll kool. And keep da faith, ma homie....hope yo kesariya koolaid man is on da money...with da 'fitty cent vote' predikshun.

JohnTitor
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by JohnTitor » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:49 am

Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm
This is the kind of 'secret sauce' recipe that I object to. It reminds me of the Bal Yogeshwar story many years ago who my cousins used to literally worship (they had his photo in their mandir at home). They were part of his 'chosen ones' and he had whispered the 'secret mantra' into their ears which supposedly had taken them into another state of existence. When I asked what this mantra was and if they could whisper it in my ear too, I was told I was not ready and only 'Maharaj Ji' could do this if he decided I was the right candidate. A few years later the Maharaj Ji married his white follower who was 7 yrs older than him. Needless to say the photo disappeared from my cousin's home and they never spoke about him again.
But this is how it works, whether you like it or not. You (and I mean Hindus in general) can either choose to accept this truth or not. Most don't. Having said that, if the seeking is sincere and relentless, a guru will automatically be found.

But the problem these days is a combination of lack of sincerity from the disciple and the overflow of charlatans as "gurus". Unfortunately, one begets the other. Just as people in a democracy get the government they deserve, the seeker gets the guide according to ones sincerity.
Seriously though and from a purely scientific perspective, I would probably derive more spiritual/psychological benefit from a controlled and guided experience with teonanacatl or something similar. There is enough research in neuroscience to suggest that the 'doors of perception' may truly be opened with some psychedelics and perhaps this is what some yogis and seers are able to do naturally, with or without the aid of 'herbal' products. They may well have the capability of releasing a natural ligand for the 5HT-2a receptor through meditation or otherwise. Whether this enables them to experience and understand the world differently I don't know.
If you are going for purely "science" and the western construct of spirituality, then Hinduism isn't the way. From that perspective, it seems very backward and superstitious. As I said before, Hinduism is all about experience. It isn't dogmatic.

Chandragupta
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Chandragupta » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:11 am

Primus wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:55 am
^

Perhaps it is good then that I cannot influence things in India :D

Seriously though, I have read all the holy books, from the Koran to the Bible and of course our own. I have listened to and watched all the 'Gurus' on television and Youtube. I admit I have not studied in a Hindu seminary like the Ramakrishna Mission schools and have never been a member of the RSS. So it is certainly possible that I missed something somewhere and my knowledge and understanding of what it is to be a Hindu may not be as deep as some here.

I have also traveled all over India and seen with my own eyes the destruction of the Hindu temples and icons, read all the VOI books, so my blood too boils when I think of the atrocities committed against our ancestors.

However, I have lived life long enough to realize that the most important thing is to be human. Dogmatism of any kind is bad for humanity. I am also fundamentally a scientist and unable therefore to subscribe to religion the way many people do. I am thus more a spiritual and cultural Hindu at heart.

One of the things that remains unanswered by the proponents of what I see here is how we are going to deal with 200 million muslims of India. They are not going away and they are not going to convert back to Hinduism. They need to be accommodated into the fabric of the nation in a manner which avoids genocide on a massive scale. I have not yet heard of a solution to this problem. My own belief is that the only way forward is a truly secular polity, appeasement of the majority or minority (the latter is what has happened all these years) is not going to work.
Primus ji, it has nothing to do about your spiritual / religious leanings, Guru/ no-guru or even understanding of texts etc. It is simply that in your earlier post, you were looking at dharma still through the prism of western instruments of modern state i.e. impartial judiciary / secular modern state etc.

Dharma is doing the right thing, not bound by western constructs. Dharma is ruthless yet compassionate. Remember in MB, Pandavas beheaded their own brothers, uncles & elders to uphold dharma. Yet today people want to 'outsource' the sacred duty to a modern judiciary who will look at issues through the western prism of law (the RJB case).

Regarding Muslims, dharma says we should protect these people but the same dharma says that the evil ideology / adharmic cult of Islam must be destroyed. There is no disconnect between the two. We must save Muslims of India from Islam and then destroy Islam from India, not Muslims.

Misra
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Misra » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:46 am

Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm
Misra wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:28 pm
Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:07 pm

I suppose I have not met the right person yet.
correct—you may not be ready/may not have prepared yourself enough/may not have asked yourself the ‘right’ questions deeply enough for the right person/guru to find you
I guess I need to pass an 'entrance exam' like I did to get into med school, else the enlightened Guru will not see me though he sees everything else 8-)
yep, and the exam is harder or simpler depending on your level of ignorance and the intensity of your yearning to know
Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm
This is the kind of 'secret sauce' recipe that I object to.
happily, your objection (or personal anecdote) does not change how it happens for many, many others
Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm
Seriously though and from a purely scientific perspective,
having had the opportunity, in a previous life, to design drugs to combat cocaine addiction, i have some exposure to the science around neurotransmitters. while it is true that psychedelics and hallucinogens can induce expanded states of consciousness, their effects are tragically temporary (hence the repeated use/abuse of such substances by addicts). the sustained ecstatic states experienced by some others are self induced often through long periods of systematic preparation of the body and mind—aka ‘sadhana’. (no amount of bedtime reading of upanishads will get you there.) not for the faint hearted and definitely not for those stuck in the trap of superficial logic and unconscious science worship. the ‘science’ of yoga is truly massive in its scope and application (it is the basis of dharma etc, for example)—but to get started on it, it takes some effort and commitment to undo years of conditioning—both of the body and of the mind. so for some it is easier to simply pass it off as superstition (or hide behind ‘science’) than to get off their own lazy asses and try the damned thing for themselves :lol:

vishvak
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by vishvak » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:46 am

Don't forget also that discussion now is not about mutual respect, which is how it should be, but is about tolerance which is almost insult. This is what pseudo secularism has rolled towards.

Discussion about Dharma systems are too far, from realpolitik that even accepted conversion into the Constitution.

JohnTitor
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by JohnTitor » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:48 am

^^ No. Secularism is about tolerance.

Indian secularism aka sickularism is about one-way tolerance where Hindus have to tolerate insults, abuse and mockery all in the name of "free speech" while "respect for one's faith" is expected for the abrahamics.

But neither secularism nor sickularism is about respect.

vishvak
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by vishvak » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:38 pm

Wasn't secularism word included in constitution during emergency by left, and never defined/discussed? At least that should have been corrected on immediate, or subsequent, elections - even if to include after discussion & definition or something.

Just trying to figure out how and if exclusive ideologies gang up over time, even though fight it out violently outside, such as Afghanistan (religion v/s communism), Vietnam (colonism v/s communism), etcetera.

chetak
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by chetak » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:27 pm

twitter
PM @narendramodi had his 'official dinner' @ Singapore with the Head of that nation at an Indian restaurant.

See what he takes.

Also see how the other gentleman, the new CM, prepares for his dinner.

This is @narendramodi & this is new India under @BJP4India.


Image

Primus
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:15 am

JohnTitor wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:49 am
Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm
This is the kind of 'secret sauce' recipe that I object to. It reminds me of the Bal Yogeshwar story many years ago who my cousins used to literally worship (they had his photo in their mandir at home). They were part of his 'chosen ones' and he had whispered the 'secret mantra' into their ears which supposedly had taken them into another state of existence. When I asked what this mantra was and if they could whisper it in my ear too, I was told I was not ready and only 'Maharaj Ji' could do this if he decided I was the right candidate. A few years later the Maharaj Ji married his white follower who was 7 yrs older than him. Needless to say the photo disappeared from my cousin's home and they never spoke about him again.
But this is how it works, whether you like it or not. You (and I mean Hindus in general) can either choose to accept this truth or not. Most don't. Having said that, if the seeking is sincere and relentless, a guru will automatically be found.

But the problem these days is a combination of lack of sincerity from the disciple and the overflow of charlatans as "gurus". Unfortunately, one begets the other. Just as people in a democracy get the government they deserve, the seeker gets the guide according to ones sincerity.
Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm
Seriously though and from a purely scientific perspective, I would probably derive more spiritual/psychological benefit from a controlled and guided experience with teonanacatl or something similar. There is enough research in neuroscience to suggest that the 'doors of perception' may truly be opened with some psychedelics and perhaps this is what some yogis and seers are able to do naturally, with or without the aid of 'herbal' products. They may well have the capability of releasing a natural ligand for the 5HT-2a receptor through meditation or otherwise. Whether this enables them to experience and understand the world differently I don't know.

Interesting.

So how do I go about being 'sincere'? Is there a definition of that somewhere other than what is generally understood? Pardon me, but to me this is mere mumbo-jumbo. Do I have to pull a Richard Alpert and look for a Neem Karoli Baba? I mean tell me how YOU would do it. Would you advertise in a paper? Google? Ask your friends and family - "I am looking for an honest and truly Dharmic Guru who can enlighten me?" Or if I am 'sincere' enough, will I radiate waves of my need that somewhere in the wide world a man of the right sort would receive and come looking for me? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? I mean no disrespect JT, but realistically speaking, how do you deal with the logistics of this endeavor?

it is all very well to say 'if you are deserving enough, the right teacher will find you'. But how does one really go about it? And how will I know if the so called right teacher is indeed The One? Do I wander the slopes of the Himalayas until an epiphany strikes me, or the streets of Varanasi hoping to find the person who is not a scam artist and is truly 'awake' himself?

If you are going for purely "science" and the western construct of spirituality, then Hinduism isn't the way. From that perspective, it seems very backward and superstitious. As I said before, Hinduism is all about experience. It isn't dogmatic.
Please see my answer to Misra Ji below. I will agree with you that the history of spiritual enlightenment and the upliftment of human consciousness in the West is conspicuously bereft of substance. I have already said that Hinduism's appeal is its flexibility and lack of dogma.

Primus
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:19 am

Chandragupta wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:11 am
Regarding Muslims, dharma says we should protect these people but the same dharma says that the evil ideology / adharmic cult of Islam must be destroyed. There is no disconnect between the two. We must save Muslims of India from Islam and then destroy Islam from India, not Muslims.
I am with you there completely. However, I have not yet figured out how to do it. Have you?

I have grappled with this question ever since the Babri incident in 1992. There is no easy answer that does not involve genocide on a massive scale. I urge you to read the Koran and the Hadiths to understand the problem. Many a muslim scholar, reformists like Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji, Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina have written about the problems with their erstwhile faith and they agree that the solution has to come from within Islam itself, if at all. You and I cannot do much, and certainly not with any legislation.

Primus
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:53 am

Misra wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:46 am
Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm
Misra wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:28 pm


correct—you may not be ready/may not have prepared yourself enough/may not have asked yourself the ‘right’ questions deeply enough for the right person/guru to find you
I guess I need to pass an 'entrance exam' like I did to get into med school, else the enlightened Guru will not see me though he sees everything else 8-)
yep, and the exam is harder or simpler depending on your level of ignorance and the intensity of your yearning to know
Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm
This is the kind of 'secret sauce' recipe that I object to.
happily, your objection (or personal anecdote) does not change how it happens for many, many others
Primus wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 pm
Seriously though and from a purely scientific perspective,
having had the opportunity, in a previous life, to design drugs to combat cocaine addiction, i have some exposure to the science around neurotransmitters. while it is true that psychedelics and hallucinogens can induce expanded states of consciousness, their effects are tragically temporary (hence the repeated use/abuse of such substances by addicts). the sustained ecstatic states experienced by some others are self induced often through long periods of systematic preparation of the body and mind—aka ‘sadhana’. (no amount of bedtime reading of upanishads will get you there.) not for the faint hearted and definitely not for those stuck in the trap of superficial logic and unconscious science worship. the ‘science’ of yoga is truly massive in its scope and application (it is the basis of dharma etc, for example)—but to get started on it, it takes some effort and commitment to undo years of conditioning—both of the body and of the mind. so for some it is easier to simply pass it off as superstition (or hide behind ‘science’) than to get off their own lazy asses and try the damned thing for themselves :lol:
Misra Ji, you seem to be a man after my own heart :)

Having had a lifelong interest in human consciousness and neuropsychology from my Best and Banting days, I can tell you that things are quite different now from the 70s when we all 'experimented' :D

I agree completely, psychedelics have at best a temporary effect and yet my argument is that the real gurus and seers may be able to sustain a state of heightened awareness or 'vipaasana' with/without the aid of such agents, perhaps through years of meditation, mediated through the release of 'endorphin-like' ligands for receptors such as the 5-HT2a I mentioned earlier. I don't know if you are familiar with the work of Richard Davidson with Tibetan monks, or of Michael Pollan and the recent studies at Columbia and elsewhere.

I have no doubt that it would take years of patient practice and dedication to master the level of 'wakefulness' (if you like) that these yogis can achieve. My skepticism is reserved for those that claim supernatural abilities and powers achieved through these practices. Have met several such people and others who support them, all in awe of their mystical aura and transcendence.

My question to you and the other 'gurus' on this board remains and I would love an honest answer instead of condescension. I am old enough to have seen a fair amount of life in its various forms.
yep, and the exam is harder or simpler depending on your level of ignorance and the intensity of your yearning to know
Would you please give me a clear answer to what you mean by this, and what exactly is this 'exam'. How do you measure the ignorance or yearning of somebody you hardly know on an anonymous forum? You realize I was being a bit facetious, perhaps you were too, in which case its alright.

Misra
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Misra » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:02 am

Primus wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:53 am
yep, and the exam is harder or simpler depending on your level of ignorance and the intensity of your yearning to know
Would you please give me a clear answer to what you mean by this, and what exactly is this 'exam'.
i mean exactly what i wrote. are you being facetious again?
Primus wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:53 am
How do you measure the ignorance or yearning of somebody you hardly know on an anonymous forum?
from your posts, of course. your questions about the subject are frivolous, lack depth and have been asked and responded to countless times before by countless gurus. they are rather tiresome and contain ridicule and condescension disguised as skepticism. are you really seeking these answers on an anonymous forum? are you disrupting a perfectly good thread?

Sachin
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Sachin » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:50 am

Some thing to cheer up (and bring back the discussion to elections etc.)
1.CM performs puja, occupies chambers on ‘auspicious’ day. At least not being hypocritical here and claiming to be atheist etc.
2.Lobbying for key berths stalls portfolio allocation. No respite in the "demands", and upcoming days would be fun.
3.After missing the Cabinet bus, sulking leaders hold meets. Hope BJP is sponsoring a few such meets ;) :).
4.Ministers to be changed every 6 months based on their work: DyCM. This is an equal opportunity govt. which gives every MLA a fair chance to show "secularism" and also mint money in the process. Karnataka PSC can have questions in its exams, "Who is the minister holding a portfolio in a given month?".

Primus
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Re: Election Discussions - National, State etc

Post by Primus » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:05 am

Misra wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:02 am
Primus wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:53 am
yep, and the exam is harder or simpler depending on your level of ignorance and the intensity of your yearning to know
Would you please give me a clear answer to what you mean by this, and what exactly is this 'exam'.
i mean exactly what i wrote. are you being facetious again?
Primus wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:53 am
How do you measure the ignorance or yearning of somebody you hardly know on an anonymous forum?
from your posts, of course. your questions about the subject are frivolous, lack depth and have been asked and responded to countless times before by countless gurus. they are rather tiresome and contain ridicule and condescension disguised as skepticism. are you really seeking these answers on an anonymous forum? are you disrupting a perfectly good thread?
Wow, Misra Ji, how patronizing!

But, I will bow to your transcendence and your superior intellect and stop here. No more from me on this topic.

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