The Great Indian Political Drama - 1 (Oct 2017 - Mar 2018)

[sbajwa]

by RahulMehta
(1) What have they done to free Hindu temples from Govt control across India or even in RSS-ruled states? NOTHING
.
(2) Two child law can be passed as money bill or using joint session or using referendum. Have RSS-leaders passed two child law? NO
.
(3) No progress in expelling Bangladeshis. And inflow is same as before
.
(4) No attempt to publicize how much lands Missionaries own. No attemt to seize their plots or even impose wealth tax on it
.
(5) Nothing real on cow protection

At least they are trying! and are doing much better than any parties in past.

First you feed your armies and then you let them march.
Modi is first building economy and when people are rich/satisfied and fed they will find their way.

[jamwal]

Do not take Mehta ji very seriously. He is a politician too.

He is a lot like Philip of politics.

[MehtaRahulC]

Dera Sachha Sauda case details
.
(1) In year 2002, PM ABV gets letter that Baba Ram Rahim Gurmeetji has raped two girls in 1999 !!
.
(2) In 2004, High Court judge orders CBI to start investigation !!
.
(3) CBI and Haryana IPS interview over 200 girls in DSS and none say that they were raped. So CBI interviews them again and again and again, till statements of two girls in 2006 imply some "rape" did happen in 1999 !! CBI notes statements before magistrates and NOT in open court !!!
.
(4) The lower court judge refuses to give copies of PREVIOUS statements (where two girls had denied rape) to defence. HCjs and SChs also refuse.
.
(5) The lower court judge said that girls need NOT give fresh statements in court and statement made before maguistrate will suffice
.
(6) The judges refuse to allow cross examination of victims !! And there are no witnesses to examine or cross examine !! It is said that both girls repeatedly said that there was no "rape" and they wanted to change the statement. And so judge didnt allow them to re-depose.
.
(7) A supreme court "judgment" says that "testimony of victim in rape cases can be take as full , final , complete and TRUTHFUL 'evidence' " !! The lower court uses that judgment to assume the statement given before magistrate and not in court as FULL "EVIDENCES" !!!
.
(8) Based on this "evidence" and NOTHING else, judge imposes 20 year sentence !!!
.
And we have people across India hailing this "judgment" as "epic" and "legendary" !!!
.
-----------
.
The real story ---
.
(1) Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahilmji has done SUPERB work in deaddiction, dalit upliftment, giving emplotyment and so on. And Akali Badal hate him because many Dalit Sikhs and OBC Sikhs left Akalies and became Dera followers. RSS too wants direct access over Dalit voters and doesnt like to bow before Baba for votes. And Missioanries hate Baba Ram Rahimji because because of Babaji, Dalits are not coming to Missiaonroies
.
(2) So Akali Badal, RSS and Missionaries all ganged up to destroy Dera Sachha Sauda. Congress too decided not to help Baba this time, because Baba had supported RSS in Haryana election and opposed congress !! (Otherwise DSS has been congress supporter and in Punjab election, DSS supported congress).
.
(3) They could NOT find even one case which case stand court, But "rape" cases are class of their own --- where mere testimony before magistrate can be taken as evidence without re-statement in court and without cross examination !!! So finally, "rape" case was used by Badals / RSS / Missionaries to take down Dera Sachha Sauda and Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahimji !!!
.
(4) And paidmediemen like bikau-arnab , bikau-raj-sharma, bikau-roy, bikau sardesai were told to shout "rapistbaba rapist baba rapist baba " etc whole day !!!
.
All in all, these people have done GREAT service to Missionaries. Because all Dalits / OBCs who were with DSS are NOT goung to Akali, but will now become fodder to Missioanries. And for now, Missionaries work with RSS because they want to take down Islamists and China. But once they are done with Islamists / China, Missionaries will become a force of their own
.
So Hinduvaadies should see that basically, this was just as hatchet job against DSS, where RSS also ganged up against DSS for its short term electroral gains
.
----
.
Solution I propose is ending judge system and using Jury System for ALL trials including murder, rape etc. Because left to corrupt judges, we will only see "judgments" like "statements made in 2006 on event in 1999 be taken as final full true evidence" and so on.
.
And Badals are fakes / frauds / phonies. They are NOT real Akali of 1925. Akali Dal of 1925 got divided into 50 parties and Badals who now own biggest faction are just British sponsored crooks.
.
------------
,
Missionries pulled a similar hit job on Sant Sri Asaram Bapu who was stopping Dalits / Tribals. And though case was made during congress time, now its clear that RSS too doesnt want to help Sant Sri Asaram Bapu, because RSS wants DIRECT access to Dalit / Tribal votes and doesnt want to bow to Asaram Bapu for support
.
-----
.
Many moons ago, Chandragupta decided that "all India should unite" . Unite under whom? Of couse, ":united under him". So he decided to finish all kings and take over the kingdoms.
.
Same was RSS wants to "unite all Hindus". And so RSS wants to knock down all Baba , Guru etc who have their own Hindu sects and RSS wants to control all Hindu temples. Thats why RSS now opposes the proposal to end Govt control over temples !!! Essentially, RSS wants to "unite all Hindus" and so RSS wants to finish all Guru , Baba like Baba Ram Rahim Gurmeetji or Sant Rampal or Sant Asaram Bapu etc.
.
Missionaries have thwir own reasons why they too want to finish Baba. But Missionaries dont harm Baba Ramdevji or Sri Sri Ravishankerji or Sadhguru Jaggi because these gur chase ONLY upper case and upper middle class. They dont do any work in Dalits / Tribals and OBCs. Missioanries right now want to poach ONLY Dalits / Tribals and poor OBCs, and so Missionaries want to knowck down their Baba , and not Baba of upper caste / class such as ramdevji or Sri Sri or Jaggi Sadguru.
.

[sbajwa]

Rahul Mehta your post is wrong!

Gurmeet Ram Rahim not only raped but also murdered along with castrating many boys to keep watch over his Harem (check google for many such stories and interviews on youtube. He was using the tactics directly out of Islam. Now his followers (not 3 crores as he claims) are converting to Islam. The dera sacha sauda is and was a Jhootha Sauda. Congress shielded him and BJP convicted him for all the right reasons.

[Gus]

Do not take Mehta ji very seriously. He is a politician too.

He is a lot like Philip of politics.

get rid of modi under the arguments of 'pseudo-hindutvavaad' for not fixing rte, temples, rjb, ucc etc and bring back sonia, rahul, mulayam, yechury, mani shankar, diggy raja, omar abdullah, periyarists etc. That will fix it. comes with free fixing of gdp growth as well by chidambaram.

[Hari Seldon]

get rid of modi under the arguments of 'pseudo-hindutvavaad' for not fixing rte, temples, rjb, ucc etc and bring back sonia, rahul, mulayam, yechury, mani shankar, diggy raja, omar abdullah, periyarists etc. That will fix it. comes with free fixing of gdp growth as well by chidambaram.

While one is oh-so-free to hold whatever opinion one wants to, misrepresentation of an opposing position ain't the noblest of ways to go about it.

Doubt *any* BJP core-voter (i.e., one who cares about "hindu"issues) raising the total and brutal burial by Modi sarkar of issues dear to them such as RTE, temple-freedom etc is rooting for a return to sonia or psec raj.

P.S. And no Rahul Mehta isn't a core BJP voter by any measure.

A reasonable argument that says the BJP as a political party should talk to its supporters about the issues dear to them isn't == support for c-system shenanigans.

And its not as if the hindutvavadis are being unreasonable about their "demands" . If Modi sarkar intends to make good on its past promises (which now they pretend like never happened), has the 'right' intent and seeks more time/space to do what they said they would do, ...why, then, let it at least signal so.

Let it ask the same core votebase that stood by the BJP through thick and thin for the same and rest assured, that time/space will be happily granted.

But to ask the hindutvavadis to trust Modi sarkar in the absence of any signal of intent from Modi sarkar would be repeating the mistakes the Hindu community back in the 40s made in implicitly trusting the INC and MKG with safeguarding Hindu interests against the aggressive and openly threatening moves by the muslim league.

History rhymes and we weren't born y'day. Trust has to be earned - NM has quite a lot of trust and goodwill amongst us going back a long way andhe has since steadily drawn down this political capital.

So yes, this canard that we (I count myself a hindutavdi in the core-BJP-voter mold) are pro-sonia just because we raise Qs on Mahatma Modi's current style of running this sarkar will not go unchallenged. Only.

Peace.

[abhijatT]

Gusji , Hari ji just paying my Guru Rina from what I have learned from these forums.

[Singha]

ANI UP ANINewsUP
Case registered against actor Prakash Raj in a Lucknow Court on complaint by a lawyer over his remarks on PM Modi; Case to be heard on 7 Oct

http://www.news18.com/news/movies/case- ... 36399.html

[Singha]

^^ how different is the above from anyone calling a public figure names in a public place like this ?

[hanumadu]

Abhinav Prakash‏ @Abhina_Prakash 11m11 minutes ago

NaMo speech today on economy is like सौ सुनार की, एक लोहार की l

Translation:

Namo's speech today on economy is like one blow by blacksmith is greater than 100 blows of goldsmith.

Looks like Namo came out swinging in his speech. Lot of counter facts in his speech and on SM too with graphics.

[MehtaRahulC]

get rid of modi under the arguments of 'pseudo-hindutvavaad' for not fixing rte, temples, rjb, ucc etc and bring back sonia, rahul, mulayam, yechury, mani shankar, diggy raja, omar abdullah, periyarists etc. That will fix it. comes with free fixing of gdp growth as well by chidambaram.

Can YOU explain why Modiji etc have NOT freed Indian temples from Govt control? Even in RSS ruled states like MP, Gujarat, MAharashtra etc, we see temples under Govt control?
.
Three weeks is ENOUGH to print law at central / state levels to free temples. And it has been over 3 years.
.
Why dont YOU make a list of temples (except Swaminarayan) in Ahmedabad and see who were the TRUSTEES in 1960s and which political parties' leaders are now trustees.
.
And how many years do you think Modiji will take to print 2 child law? And print necessary laws to expel Bangladeshi?
.
And when SCjs cancelled NJAC, what did Modiji do? He started co-opting with SCjs --- "thoda tum rakho, thoda hame do" 9you keep some, get me some). NJAC was useless but was passed by BOTH houses with 100% majority and was CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT beyound the review of SCjs. But instead of shouting back and taking the matter to public, Modiji just decied to have collegium = cartel system back !!!
.
----
.
And what you said is classic trick of RSS-workers (RSS = BJP) "show fear of Congress / AAP / ArKe / SoGa and force Hindus to vote for RSS / NaMo". Remember sholay movie? "soja bete soja ... varna gabber aa jayega " (mother shouting at her kid "dont you dare cry and you better go to sleep or else gabber singh will come"). So RSS workers will show pictures of Dawood / Latif / SoGa / ARKe and then threaten Hindus "you better vote for Modiji" !!! Thats all RSS-workers have done since ages.
.
So no - solution is NOT to vote for SoGa / Arke / Congresss / AAP. I never said that. The solution is that --- activists should start working for REAL NATIONALIST REAL SECULAR political electoral parties / groups. And they should see that congress / rss / aap are now BEYOND repair --- because neither leaders nor workers wont to fix their parties and give the goodies power bring.
.

[Mahakala]

While I do not agree with Mehtaji on pretty much most accounts ( Hi RM ji. Long time no see!) I do have to accept his criticism of BJP on the core hindu issues. We've seen (afaican see) movement only on crushing FCRA inflows for the biggest 2 EJ NGOs in India. Other than that, I agree with him wholeheartedly.

We cannot do Vivekananda's first roti then religion. We have to fight for both together. Why? Your kids who get educated today with the congress/marxist/ej/arjan singh ncert textbooks are already getting deracinated in the middle/upper middle class sections. All the opposition to Hindu festivals and hindu festivals alone is a clear blatant example for this. Take RTE & 93rd amendment. Or art 30. BJP/Jan sangh manifestos had removal of art 30 for years. But slowly over the years they've dropped it. Sonia's lawmaking gang passed 93rd & RTE in their first lok sabha session. Result? Thousands of hindu run schools shut down across the country. Fadnavis govt alone is responsible for not clearing RTE dues for FOUR years! See the impact of playing your game? RMji, I hope you also pay some attention to the RTE mess. I'm sure you can dig up number of schools (hindu run) that have shut down in Gujarat since it came into effect.

Every year you spend wasting time thinking of the mythical tipping point where people will be happy with vikas achieved when they'll finally say right time to rock and roll on hindu issues, you'd have missed the bus and gone over the hump of population curve and staring down the barrel in terms of political heft within the hindu fold itself (given quickening deracination within) plus the muslim population growth (Their TFR is greater!). You will lose. Remember, we've lost Afghanistan, Pakistan, BD and pretty much a large section of our NE (to EJ gangs). How much more do we have to wait before putting up a stand? The urban elite wont.

PS: There are a few threads by amit thadani on twitter on the loot in several temple trusts. names many prominent personalities across parties. Also somnath temple trust has guess who in it. Temples are money hoards for individuals and the govt itself. Hence the reluctance to relinquish control. Unless there is a wide push along with appropriate legislation and control& administration framework, it won't happen. Given the wide variety of temples and their original administration and quirks and practices and traditions, it has to be very very varied in its application.

[MehtaRahulC]

Rahul Mehta your post is wrong!

Gurmeet Ram Rahim not only raped but also murdered along with castrating many boys to keep watch over his Harem (check google for many such stories and interviews on youtube. He was using the tactics directly out of Islam. Now his followers (not 3 crores as he claims) are converting to Islam. The dera sacha sauda is and was a Jhootha Sauda. Congress shielded him and BJP convicted him for all the right reasons.

.
Say a girl tells in year 2002 that you had raped her in 1999. Then should you be convicted merely based on that statement, that too taken n year 2006, and NO evidence , witness and NOT even cross examination of accused? And even if past statements before policemen by same girl had opposite statement and made no mention of rape? Do you really believe that Magistrates will never lie while noting statements (no video)? And victim is always right?
.
Btw, Dera has some over 1 crore followers (not 3 crore or 6 crore as they say). And I have met over 15 people PERSONALLY who lives in DSS including 2 student girls , who stayed in hostel just 1 km away from "gufa" !!! One girl was OBC Sikh , but had applied as general as she could not get OBC certoficate. She had cleared IAS prelims (dont know what happened in mains). She had been DSS follower against wish of her family since she was 14 years old !! And they all say --- they never heard of any such activities in and around DSS, Sirsa.
.
I have heard of countless LIES against Sant Asaram Bapu --- that he was serial rapist and all that. And all that were just lies.
.
If Baba Ram Rahimji was murderer etc, then why didnt policemen chased THOSE cases first? Why give preecedence to rape cases? Simple --- in rape conviction is possible WITHOUT evidence
.
And btw, thanks for accepoting that BJP = RSS did do a hit job on Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahimji . Because most DSS followers still rever Modiji !!! And most Hinduvaadies dont agree with me that RSS = BJP is actively behind destroying DSS
.
----
.
You say "Dera followers are now coverting to islam". Well, Baba Gurmeetji was keeping them glued to Hinduism. Now Baba is gone and knocked dpwn. The followers are deep state of depression. So Missionaries , Islamists --- you name it --- all are poaching. So yes, some may become Muslim, some may convert to Missionaries. The real question was --- why did so many Dalit Sikhs leave SGPC? because Badals had kicked them out of structure !!! Instead of fixing corrupt Badals, Akalies decied to take down Baba and DSS !! Well, obviously Is;lamists and Missionarfies now have free field in poaching DSS's followers
.
-----
.
Btw, care to put some sentences on corruption and land grabbing of Badals and RSS = BJP leaders in Punjab? How many of them are drug dealers? Or rather, how many are NOT drug dealers?
.
DSS is down , and may get destroyed. Time will tell. But RSS / Badals have done HUGE favor to Missionaries (and also Islamists, as some DSS followers may turn to Islam , though most will get poached by Missionaries). For their short term benefits , Badals and RSS have given Dalits to Missioanries on a silver platter.
.
And thanks again for mentioning that "BJP worked to get Baba ram Rahimji jailed". Because I am really having hard time convincing Hinduvaadies that BJP = RSS can even do such thing on a Hindu Baba.
.
----
.
Added later --- about castration claims. Pls google on number of males across India / world (or even USA) go opt for castration. The number is shocking high and rising !!! The reasons are social / psycological, and such people often become followers of Baba / Guru. That does not mean Baba / Guru forced them. If he forces one person do go for castration, then next day --- all will run away !!! Now bikau mediamen claim that he had 400 such castartated volunteers !! My advice to all will be --- pls dont listen to people like bikau Sardesai or bikau arnab. Pls select 100-200 people at RANDOM from voter list of Sirsa. Ask them --- and yes, some people hated Baba , but many many revered him. There are LAKHS of de-addiction , prostiture marriages, widow marriages, adoption etc done by Dera.
.
-----
.
Anyway --- my final take --- Jury Trials. Because left to judges, trust me --- tomorow anyone of BRF will get convicted as rapist !!!

[svenkat]

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/president ... on-of-obcs

President Ram Nath Kovind yesterday appointed a commission to examine the sub-categorisation of Other Backward Classes (OBCs) to ensure that more backward among the communities can access the benefits of reservation.

The five-member panel will be headed by retired Chief Justice of the Delhi High Court G Rohini.

The Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment said in a statement, “Sub-categorisation of the OBCs will ensure that the more backward among the OBC communities can also access the benefits of reservation for educational institutions and government jobs.”

The decision, taken on the birth anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi, reinforces, in the spirit of his teachings, the government’s efforts to achieve greater social justice and inclusion for all, and specifically members of the OBC, the statement added.

The joint secretary in the department of social justice and empowerment will be its secretary.

Dr J K Bajaj would be its member, while the Director of the Anthropological Survey of India and the Registrar General and Census Commissioner would be ex-officio members.

The terms of reference of the commission are to “examine the extent of inequitable distribution of benefits of reservation among the castes or communities included in the broad category of OBC with reference to such classes included in the central list; to work out the mechanism, criteria, norms and parameters in a scientific approach for sub- categorisation within such OBCs”.

The commission will also “take up the exercise of identifying the respective castes or communities or sub-castes or synonyms in the central list of OBCs and classifying them into their respective sub-categories”.

According to the statement, the commission is “required to present their report to the President within a period of 12 weeks of assumption of charge by the chairperson of the commission” and after this, the central government would consider ways and means for equitable distribution of the benefits of the reservation in central government jobs and admission in central government institutions amongst all strata of the OBCs.

[jamwal]

That rrsi baba was a jatt Sikh and taught his followers to abandon many Hindu rituals. He was also a Congress supporter till last election.
His prison sentence is no loss to Hinduism. As far as his followers converting to Islam or xtians, if they are as fickle as you think they are, then it is better to have a stupid enemy than a stupid friend.

[svenkat]

https://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2017 ... -edu-laws/

In short : The Lingayat community through their leaders have expressed a demand to be classified as a Minority religion separate from the Hindus. To an uninformed person, that demand in itself is kind of super wacky. Why on earth would they want a Govt certification of their status? Normally in a vibrant democracy you would expect the hordes of mainstream media outlets, eminent jurists, thinktanks, and social intellectuals to tear into the “whys and whats” of this inexplicable absurd demand. Nothing of that sort will happen in the Indian intellectual circuit. That is because they might be accomplices in hiding a “Pumpkin under the rice” (Tamil proverb).

The media have focused on the doctrinal issues especially around how Lingayat is different, even better, than the other Hinduism. Notably, The Economist has joined the chorus with its supportive piece “Medieval poet bedevils India’s most powerful political party”.

Luckily the nascent #Core movement is forever alert to these shenanigans.

The Lingayat protest is not driven by doctrinal differences but merely as a response to the most ludicrous legal regime currently in force in any part of the world.

To start off – we have two excellent commentaries that looks under the hood. The first is by the prolific Hariprasad N @pranasutra “Why are Lingayats in Karnataka demanding a minority religion status” the second piece is by Medium writer @IOI who wonders “Why American political parties are not caught up with establishing Adventists as Christians or not”

I am not going to repeat the points made in those posts, but open up the following Five questions

1 Separate religious identity marker test

Lets first examine this claim. The Lingayat movement is about a nuanced religious doctrinal conflict of Basawesharas rebellion against Agamas, Vedic, Sanatanic strictures and pro social justice etc. (See this explanatory piece “Explained: The Lingayat claim for separate religion” by The Hindu)

If that were all there is to it, Lingayatism doesnt need a gazette notification but can cleave from Hinduism by a natural process. There is no Hindu pope who is going to prevent them from separating, nor will there be any institutional retaliation. All they need is to develop an inside / outside view with Hindus and build higher walls and deeper moats. They can use unique types of food, perfumes, practices that appear strange to Hindus, mutilations, naming babies in certain way, controlling intercourse with Hindus, and so on. Most importantly they can use their institutions for labeling and access control. They can start by installing notice boards in their mutts, or movies and booklets and films emphasizing the schism, and to censure and expel those who interact or adopt Hindu symbols. This is the natural process. They do not do any of these things, but insist ONLY on Central Govt notification (a mere piece of paper) that amends the National Commission of Minorities Act 1992 and adds them as the 7th religious minority in India.

This means the doctrinal distance is not central to the debate at all, but it is a gazette notification is what is being sought. So the practical minded person need not engage with Basavanna or Sanatana at all. That brings us to the next four questions.

2 Is Art 30 a sword or a shield

Article 30 happens to be the primary distortion in India because it uses state force to shape which groups are allowed how much institutional control. This has dramatic and permanent impact on generations. Only those groups with institutional control get to propagate and reproduce their culture. To qualify this further, why I say “institution control” I mean to the extent every group has it.

There are two ways to look at Art 30, a shield : essentially a guarantee to minorities over and above Art 14 and 19 that specifically protects their educational institutions. The other way is, a sword where these minority guarantees are denied to Hindus and the minorities use this advantage to turn outward based or implement outreach agenda. The objective is then changed to educate outsiders rather than their own communities. The critical question “Are there any indicia or purpose for this minority status” is never asked.

Lingayats today run hundreds of education institutions. Ironically, this is the best argument for abolition of Art 30 (the sword interpretation). If you argue that Lingayat have been unfairly denied minority status for 40 years, then it follows that they have managed to roll out such large education network without minority status. So the only reason they want the minority status today is to protect from the “sword” interpretation.

Core1 is a strong and fundamental distortion. If you do not remove it, it can give rise to spin-off strategic games that will be hard to decipher. One strategy could be to select groups to be groomed for eventual split by allowing them to roll out big institutions and then once they are leveraged in that manner, they will need the “sword protection” and themselves cry to be called minority.

3 The 93rd Constitution amendment is open ended hence the urgency of Lingayat

If you are a Lingayat leader , the 93rd Constitutional Amendment is a terrifying reality. You will never hear the mainstream media or eminent jurists talk about this. Here is the problem. Art 15(5) introduced by the 93rd Amendment is an Open Ended confiscation of institutional control with baked in exemption for minority.

By “open ended” I mean : Any Hindu run institution can be taken over to any percent along any social justice axes in any aspect of management. The 93rd Amendment today is an enabling amendment for the notorious Right to Education Act but there is nothing in Art 15(5) that restricts it to RTE, school edu, or 25%, or for SC/ST, for teachers or students, or any other group.

The Lingayat community is philanthropically minded and is therefore highly leveraged in Edu sector. If no one will repeal these laws, or even talk about them, or even engage those like #core movement who do talk about them, then the path for them is clear. The only way to save yourself is to break off and gain immunity from this tyrannical law. The reward is a safe harbor with total and permanent autonomy guaranteed constitutionally. The ungainly sight of begging for minority status will be forgotten once this group too like the Jains before them, are protected from the Art 30 “Sword”.

4 Different or better

A very amusing aspect of this minority status should be noted. When groups like Jains, Brahmo have tried to get Minority status they not only have to declare them as different from the Hindus but better-different. No community has said “Give us minority status because we have this unique XYZ feature which is hardcore and worse as per your yardstick compared to what the remaining Hindus have.

This leads to the following conclusion. To claim institutional control rights, a group ready to be claim as schismatic have to assert that they are different and better than Hindus as per the rules of Idea of India. It then follows that Hindus will never be given institutional control rights only because they are Hindus and for no other reason. This is the exact definition of multi nationalism as the Supreme Court noted in the Bal Patil (Jain) case. One wonder why the Sangh which calls itself nationalist lets this multi-national basic jurisprudence go unchallenged.

Finally, the claim that Lingayat or Jain or Brahmo or anyone else do not recognize caste is meaningless. Because if you stage caste as a separate unit , then within the unit, by definition there can be no caste. For example, the Iyer or Gounder religion also reject caste since they just marry and conduct affairs within their own religion.

5 How to pull the rug and completely change the landscape

As shown in this article, this entire movement turns on the primary anomaly in India. The denial of institutional control mechanisms to Hindu at par with non Hindus. It is not correct to blame Lingayats for doing whatever is necessary to save themselves from the sword. The correct approach , if we are truly sovereign, is to surgically remove the primary anomaly as below

Repeal the 93rd Constitutional Amendment and announce that henceforth Article 30 will only be interpreted as a shield. If necessary amend Article 30 to bake that in as well. You just have to announce that you plan to do these things.

[svenkat]

https://www.myind.net/Home/viewArticle/ ... on-status/

https://medium.com/@ideaofindia/lingaya ... a51f1d66f1

[MehtaRahulC]

by RahulMehta
USA doesnt have GST , service tax, has excise on just 10-15 items, no CST, and limited sales tax on some final goods. USA has NO lines of trucks at border. IOW, we do NOT need GST to remove truck lines at border. USA has simple law --- that except some 10-15 goods, state cannot stop movement of goods and services and cannot collect taxes on entry of goods. The state can collect tax ONLY when sale is made in the state.

That's because USA was created as a revolt against taxes of the British king in 1776 that is 241 years ago. India got its independence only in 1947 which is 70 years ago. You cannot compare a developed economy where people pay 40% of their income (along with other taxes like property, inheritance, sales, medicare, medicaid, social security, etc) in taxes. In India people pay ZILCH!

USA doesnt have GST today (or nonsense like service tax or excise or cst) because there is huge resistance from activists TODAY , not because of what happened 250 years back
.
Now you complaint that "In India people pay ZILCH!" !! Well, there are people like Godrej who own 3400 acres of land in Mumbai alone and there are Tata 10 times bigger than Godrej and Missionaries 20 times bigger than all Tata + Godrej + Sarabhai of Ahmedabad etc etc added
.
They pay ZILCH wealth tax on their land,.
.
So whom do you blame? The leaders who refuse to print wealth tax law? Or poor people who sleep on footpaths !!?
.
And btw, "leaders" want to run miles and miles and miles in collecting excise (and now GST) on even soaps and matchsticks. Each trader now has to file 37 returns a year for central GST and 37 for State GST (and 37 more if he has businesses in 1 more state). And these leaders dont want to tax the vacant plots worth over Rs 1000 lakh crores (NO EXAGGERATION) in urban areas. And these plot owners dont file EVEN ONE return a year disclosing plots they own and its market value !!!
.
So whom do you blame for "zilch" taxes? Do you blame people of India?
.
----
.
Tax collection in India was poor because "leaders" gave plethora of capital gains exemptions and plethora of exemptions to TRUSTS !!! No wonder why all wealth in India is stashed in assorted trusts (there is one trust per 500 Indians !!!). So its time to make ALL trusts taxable --- not force common traders to file 37 * 2 = 74 returns a year.
.
And btw, pls wait for eWay bills to come in GST. When you see eWay bills , all checkposts to check eWay bills will be back !!!
.
.

[Gus]

A reasonable argument that says the BJP as a political party should talk to its supporters about the issues dear to them isn't == support for c-system shenanigans.

If you want a pure hindutva agenda as priority over other things, build a constituency for that and find somebody who can win on that platform and then hold him accountable saying "you got elected ONLY because of me, and ONLY for this agenda...so act on it pronto".

That is not the situation now. So any detraction folks like you do, can be legitimately countered with a "so do you want sonia instead?" - because that is exactly what will happen if modi is brought down.

this 'core hindutva' constituency did not get Modi elected on its strength. They by themselves could do crap in 2004 and 2009. And even in 1999 it was a coalition - which also diluted the mandate so much and had to tolerate dmk and such in their cabinet.

between the choice of UPA, or a weak NDA coalition or a modi led NDA with priority on development + no appeasement, I think I am clear on what I want. I am also clear that hindutva alone cannot win a general election.

[MehtaRahulC]

When useless RTE bill was presented in Parliament during congress days, ALL RSS = BJP MPs had voted for YES !!
.
And in Gujarat, RSS CM Vijaybhai Rupani, under the guidance of RSS PM Shri Modiji, has printed the law that schools will need permission of Govt to charge a fee of above Rs 27000 per student per YEAR !!! (yes, per year) !! And all that is done under assorted RTE type laws
.
Ever heard of fee ceiling in PRIVATE schools? Well, Gujarat has it now !!!
.
Of course, implementation is --- govt officers and trustees are running like headless chickens and chanrging same amounts under different heads !!!
.
So my point is --- RSS MLAs and RSS MPs are using RTE to fullest possible extent. And they had all supported RTE in Parliament, And now RSS workers want votes for opposing RTE !!!
.
So what is stopping RSS leaders from printing referendum tyoe law in India, using which RTE and 10s of such nonsense laws can be scrapped without any majority in LS or RS?
.
The reality is --- RSS leaders and workers are using ALL dirty money making tricks that congress used (and aap is using). And they want to create an image of someone who si fighting dirt !!
.
(tomorow --- how much money nationalist leaders made in Notebadli . stay tuned)
.

[svenkat]

Lingayat Issue — why the political parties in the United States are NOT discussing whether Adventists are Christians or not
Rahul Gandhi, Vice-President of Congress party and probably the Prime Ministerial candidate from Congress in 2019, has recently traveled to the United States and met think tankis, lobbyists and billionaire activists associated with #IdeaOfIndia giants like Amartya Sen who are the brains behind a lot of lawmaking in India. Let us see how laws work in the land where #IdeaOfIndia stalwarts like Amartya Sen live (US/UK) and how laws work in India.

Adventists — are they Christians?
The United States is a Christian-majority country. There are different sects of Christians — Catholics, Mormons, Protestants etc., and the majority in the US are Protestants. There are sub-sects in Protestants — Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Adventists etc., There are sub-sub-sects in each sub-sect but let us limit our discussion to one sub-sect — Adventists.
There are doctrinal differences among the various sects/sub-sects/sub-sub-sects of Christianity. There are some differences that markedly separate Adventists from others — some Adventists observe vegetarianism and observe Sabbath on Saturday while most Christian sects observe Sabbath on Sunday and are not vegetarians (by doctrine).
Let us recall a non-serious incident that happened during the last Presidential elections in the US. During the Republican primaries in 2016, Donald Trump, a Presbyterian, made a remark in a rally about one of his rival candidates Ben Carson, a Seventh-Day Adventist. Trump said, “I’m Presbyterian. Boy, that’s down the middle of the road, folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh-day Adventist I don’t know about.” Trump effectively said Ben Carson was not a real Christian. When pressed for an apology, Trump claimed he did not say anything bad. It ended there. Full stop. No demand for a separate ‘non-Christian religion status’ and no demand for ‘minority status’. In the US, applicability of laws or religious rights or govt programs doesn’t depend on religion. There is no such demand from Adventists in the US because there are no articles in US Constitution like Article 29, Article 30 and Article 15(5) of the Indian Constitution.

Special benefits if Lingayats are ‘declared non-Hindu’
There are many special benefits if you declare yourselves a non-Hindu and belong to a minority religion notified by Govt. of India. Currently there are six religions which enjoy this status — Muslim, Christian, Parsi, Buddhist, Sikh, Jain. Jains were given minority status in 2014 by UPA Govt after much lobbying. See the table in this piece to know what special benefits that minority religions enjoy that are denied to Hindus. Let us briefly enumerate some special benefits if you belong to a minority religion — per interpretations of Article 30 by Indian courts.

Most laws related to education don’t apply to schools/colleges if the management belongs to a minority group. The disastrous central law Right To Education Act(RTE) does not apply to schools run by minorities. It applies to only schools run by Hindus. Under RTE, private schools run by Hindus don’t have autonomy to select students of their choice, have to set aside 25% seats for RTE lottery, have to wait for refunds from Govt for 25% of non-paying seats (Govt does not refund the full fee), have other stringent requirements like playgrounds and students-teacher ratio. The law does not apply if the school management belongs to minority. — RTE does not apply to Lingayat-run schools if they are declared a minority religion by the Indian state.
Indian courts had earlier said Writ Petition against private educational institutions is maintainable. However, a writ petition against minority institutions is NOT maintainable as per a SC order. — Writ petition against a Lingayat-run schools/college is not maintainable if they are declared a minority religion by the Indian state.
Govt can take over Hindu temples/mutts. But Govt cannot interfere if the religious place belongs to a minority religion. Govt manages temples but not Churches, Mosques etc., — Govt cannot take over Lingayat mutts if they are declared a minority religion by the Indian state.
Govt can take over private schools run by Hindus. Govt cannot take over schools run by minorities. — Govt cannot take over private schools run by Lingayats if they are declared a minority religion by the Indian state.
Private or aided schools run by minorities can get funds under IDMI scheme. There is no equivalent scheme for private schools run by Hindus. — Schools run by Lingayats can receive public funds for repairs, labs, expansion if they are declared a minority religion by the Indian state.
A regional block where percentage of minorities is at least 25% get special funds under Multi-Sectoral Development Programme(MSDP). See sections 3.1, 3.2(i). — Regions where there are at least 25% Lingayats can receive special public funds for development if they are declared a minority religion by the Indian state.
Scholarship per student is more for minorities than for Hindu OBCs or SC/ST — Lingayat students have a chance of getting higher amounts of scholarship from govt if they are declared a minority religion by the Indian state.
Artisans belonging to minority religions can participate in minority-only artisan exhibition funded and facilitated by Govt. of India Hunaar Haat. — Lingayats can participate in the minority-only artisan exhibitions facilitated by Govt. of India if they are declared a minority religion by the Indian state.
Courts interfere in Hindu festivals like Dahi Handi, Jallikattu. But courts allowed animal sacrifice even inside residential societies — saying it is the religious right of the minorities. — Courts cannot interfere in any festivals/rituals of Lingayats if they are declared a minority religion by the Indian state.
There are many more such special burdens if you are Hindu and special benefits if you are non-Hindu. We can go on and on about the sectarian nature of laws/schemes in India. This is the reason some Lingayat leaders are rushing to declare themselves non-Hindu and demanding the Indian state declare them a minority religion — to escape the burdens of being a Hindu in our current sectarian regime.

The role of Congress in sectarianism in India
Congress is an aggressively anti-Hindu party. It brought sectarian govt schemes like MSDP, IDMI. When the Supreme Court gave parity to Hindus in running private educational institutions, they amended the constitution using the 93rd amendment and inserted section 5 in Article 15 to take away rights from Hindus — enabling laws like RTE. Without the 93rd amendment, Hindus would have had the same rights in private education sector.
When Rahul Gandhi was touring the US — where Adventists and non-Adventists including Catholics, Jews, Muslims etc., have to follow the same law and there are no sectarian govt schemes — meeting activists, think tankis, lobbyists, policy makers, Congress leaders in Karnataka were egging on some Lingayat leaders to declare themselves non-Hindu. Anglo-American establishment media like The Economist, which endorsed Congress party in 2014 elections, even published a piece berating the evils of Hinduism and hiding key information like the benefits(some of which shown above) they get from minority status. Around the same time, official website of the Congress party published a piece on the same issue more or less saying the same what Economist said. Some excerpts from the piece:
The purpose of a revolution in a society is a necessity to wash hide-bound traditions laden with rituals, beliefs and superstitions. Revolution requires revisiting existing customs, practices and ideals in a community with the impetus for overall transformation of established norms. This is the way a society evolves by the progress of social, religious, economic and political ideals.
The only other transformation of society of this magnitude was Protestantism, established by Martin Luther in early 16th century which spread all over the globe.
The present-day call for constitutional recognition of a separate Lingayat religion is not new. The demand for this was first unanimously established by Akhila Bharatha Lingayat Mahasabha at a convention in Davanagere in 1941. Colouring this demand as “politically influenced” comes as a retaliation of political forces to undermine an old and a genuine issue of religious freedom.
Congress party is saying this is an issue of religious freedom but does not explain us how the religious freedom of Lingayats is being violated right now. Does someone have religious freedom only if the Indian state recognizes it as a separate religion? Is Congress saying only the six religions (Christian, Muslim, Parsi, Sikh, Buddhist, Jain) currently declared as minority by the Indian state have religious freedom? Is Congress admitting that Hindus don’t have religious freedom? And the only way for Hindus to get religious freedom is by declaring themselves non-Hindus and begging for minority status (and voting for Congress in exchange?). Endless splintering of Hinduism in exchange for minority status for specific groups and ‘religious freedom’ as propounded by Congress?
Is that the end goal? Splintering of Hinduism. Is this the ‘transformation’ that Congress party is seeking?
Going back to the Adventist question in the United States
The political parties in the US are not discussing whether Adventists are Christian or not. There would not be special benefits to Adventists if they declared themselves non-Christians. There is no constitutional recognition of religions and their statuses in the US. There are no articles like Article 29, 30, 15(5). Americans would laugh at you if you make such a proposition as ‘recognition of a separate Adventist religion’ — like Congress party does it on its website.
The state cannot decide whether the law(eg: RTE) applies or whether one gets special benefits based on religion. — True in the US. False in India.
Why only US? Such sectarian laws against the majority population of a country is not in place in any country in the world, except India.
It is for the this reason that some Lingayat leaders are asking for minority status. It is not about any differences in doctrine. Congress ideologues who live in the US — like Amartya Sen, Kaushik Basu —won’t ever talk about this sectarianism in Indian laws i.e, they support this sectarianism. They want the ‘transformation’ being sought by Congress and the billionaire activists.
Solution — get rid of sectarianism in Indian Constitution and laws
Congress party might continue to offer the minority status for various Hindu groups as a bargain chip for votes and make the various diverse Hindu groups — who cannot cope up with the sectarian laws — take the bait. In that process, various Hindu groups are made to turn on each other.
What is the solution for all this? Remove section 5 of Article 15(93rd amendment) inserted by UPA Govt and amend Article 30 and give equal rights to all religions. If these are done, it doesn’t matter if one declares oneself Hindu or non-Hindu.
India

[Gus]

Can YOU explain why Modiji etc have NOT freed Indian temples from Govt control? Even in RSS ruled states like MP, Gujarat, MAharashtra etc, we see temples under Govt control?
.
Three weeks is ENOUGH to print law at central / state levels to free temples. And it has been over 3 years.

There are 100s battles on dozens of fronts to be waged.

I give modi the freedom to decide what battles to fight at what time. It is he who has to shoulder the responsibility of getting elected again.

I can see how successful you are in your electoral attempts to build your constituency and get a mandate. So easy like you say in a internet post, right?

print laws? like the NJAC?

[sbajwa]

by RahulMehta

(tomorow --- how much money nationalist leaders made in Notebadli . stay tuned)

As long as they are not Italians we should not care. If Indians are making money then it is good for India.
Back in 1920s John F kennedy's father was known to

1. Cause the great depression and then making money from it.
2. Importing the whiskey during prohibition

and check how long Kennedy's family was in power in USA and still is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy_Sr.

[svenkat]

del

[pankajs]

Unnecessary waste of forum bandwidth trying to refute *strange* logic. Where does one even begin?