Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

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MehtaRahulC
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Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by MehtaRahulC » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:23 am

I request supporters of various political parties such Congress / Bjp / AAP and other BRFites to post information they have about efforts various political and non political groups are taking to free temples from govt control, and return the temples back to their original trustees or Hindus
.
To be specific, I would request all to post information with links if possible, about LAW DRAFTS that different political parties in India have proposed to end govt control over Hindi Devalaya temples and what efforts they have done to get this laws passed
.

Javee
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Re: Freeing Hindu Devalaya from Govt control - initiatives and status

Post by Javee » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:50 am

This is something I also truly believe in. The Hindu temples should be free from the clutches of endowment board. But I don't think they should be given back to original trustees. There has to be a free and fair way to elect trustees and these positions should be term limited, and have similar entry qualifications, something like what Cholas followed.

Posting them for reference
Those who wanted to contest:

1. Must own more than a quarter veli (One Veļi = 6.17 acre 6.17 ஏக்கர் ஒரு வேலி Tamil Wikipedia) tax-paying land (காணிலத்துக்கு மேல் இறை நிலமுடையான் );

2. Must own a house built on a legally-owned site (தன் மனையிலே அகம் மெடுத்துக் கொண்டிருப்பானை );

3. Must be above 35 years of age and below 70 years (எழுபது பிராயத்தின் கீழ் முப்பத்தைந்து பிராயத்தின் மேற்ப்பட்டார் );

4. Must have knowledge of 'Mantrabrahmana' (Mantra Text) as well as experience in teaching the same to others (மந்த்ர பிராமணம் வல்லான் ஒதுவித்தறிவானைக் );

5. Can own only one - eighth (1 / 8) veli of land and must have learned one Veda and one of the four Bhashyas and experienced in explaining them to others, then he shall be eligible to contest i.e, voters write his name on the pot-ticket (ballot) to be cast into the pot (ballot pot) (அரக்கா நிலமே யுடையனாயிலும் ஒரு வேதம் வல்லனாய் நாலு பாஷ்யத்திலும் ஒரு பாஷ்யம் வக காணித்தறிவான அவனையுங் குட வோலை எழுதிப் புக இடுவதாகவும்);

6. Must be among those possessing qualifications such as expertise in business and are known for their virtues (அவர்களிலும் கார்யத்தில் நிபுணராய் ஆகாரமு டையாரானாரை யேய் கொள்வதாகவும்);

7. Must be among those who possess honest earnings and pure mind; (அர்த்த சௌசமும் ஆன்ம சௌசமும் உடையாராய்);

Those Disqualified to contest

1. Are those who have served in any of the committees for the last three years and have not submitted their accounts and all their relatives mentioned in the following classes. (மூவாட்டினிப்புறம் வாரியஞ் செய்து கணக்குக் காட்டாதே இருந்தாரையும்);

The relatives of the defaulter

2. The sons of the younger and elder sisters of defaulter's mother (இவர்களுக்குத் தாயோடு உடப் பிறந்தானையும் = தாயின் சிறிய, பெரிய சகோதரிகளின் மக்கள்);

3. The sons of defaulter's paternal aunt and maternal uncle (அவர்களுக்கு அத்தை மாமன் மக்களையும்);

4. The uterine brother of defaulter's mother (மாமன்);

5. The uterine brother of defaulter's father (இவர்கள் தகப்பநோடுப் பிறந்தானையும்);

6. Defaulter's uterine brother (இவர்களுக்குச் சிற்றனவர்);

7. Defaulter's father-in-law (மாமனார்);

8. The uterine brother of defaulter's wife (பேரவ்வைக்களையும்);

9. The husband of defaulter's uterine sister (தன்னோடுப் பிறந்தாளை வோட்டானையும் = உடன் பிறந்தாளை திருமணம் செய்தவர்);

10. The sons of defaulter's uterine sister (உடப் பிறந்தாள் மக்களையும்);

11. The son-in-law who has married defaulter's daughter (தன மகளை வேட்ட மருமகனையும் = தன் மகளை மணம் புரிந்த மருமகன்):

12. Defaulter's father (தன தமப்பனையும்);

13. Defaulter's son (தன மகனையும்);

14. One against whom incest (agamyagamana) or the first four of the five great sins are recorded (இடப்பெருதாராகவும், அகமியாகமனத்திலும் மகா பாதங்களில் முன் படைத்த நாலு மகா பாதகத்திலுமெழுத்துப் பட்டாரையும்);

15. All defaulter's relations above specified shall not have their names written on the pot-tickets and put into the pot (இவர்களுக்கும் முன் சுடப்பபட்ட இத்தனை பந்துக்களையும் குடவோலை எழுதிப்புக);

16. One who is foolhardy (சாகசிய ராயிரைப்பாரையும்);

17. One who has stolen the property of another (பரத்ரவியம் அபகரித் தானையும்);

18. One who has taken forbidden dishes (?) of any kind and who has become pure by performing expiation (கிராம கண்டகராய் ப்ராயஸ்சித்தஞ் செய்து சத்தரானாரையும்);

19. One who has committed sins and has become pure by performing expiatory ceremonies (பாதகஞ் செய்து பிராயச் சித்தர் செய்து சுத்தரானாரையும்);

20. One who is guilty of incest and has become pure by performing expiatory ceremonies (அகமியாங்கமஞ் செய்து ப்ராயஸ்சித்தஞ் செய்து சுத்தரானாரையும்);

21. All these thus specified shall not to the end of their lives have their names written on the pot-ticket to be put into the pot for any of the committees (ஆக இச்சுட்டப்பட்ட அனைவரையும் ப்ரானாந்திகம் வாரியத்துக்குக் குடவோலை எழுதி எழுதிப்புகவிடப் பெருதாக).
http://know-your-heritage.blogspot.in/2 ... a.html?m=1

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Re: Freeing Hindu Devalaya from Govt control - initiatives and status

Post by SRoy » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:31 am

@Javee: If the qualifying list from Cholas, that you have posted, is something that is you consider worthy of adoption, then I would vote to keep the temples with a secular govt.

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Re: Freeing Hindu Devalaya from Govt control - initiatives and status

Post by Yagnasri » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:57 pm

Except for the one condition. It seems that only Brahmins are eligible in this. That has to change now. In fact, we need to find a way to include all communities in the administration of the temples and bar anyone who has political connections - directly or indirectly. Further, need to involve people in working in the temple and serving there as workers freely. I am sure there will be thousands willing to clean any temple if allowed as seva. Only such people who worked as sevaks in temples shall be allowed to manage the temples and not otherwise.

MehtaRahulC
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Re: Freeing Hindu Devalaya from Govt control - initiatives and status

Post by MehtaRahulC » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:34 am

Dear all,
.
Many temples are under Govt control and more falling. Now if you wish to move something out of Govt or stop Govt from taking over, then you need a LEGISLATION or at least a PROPOSED LEGISLATION. Wish list and that too wish list have vague words wont apply here
.
The law I have proposed to @PmoIndia is at https://fb.com/mehtarahulc/posts/10154735729791922
.
pdf format = see attachment at newindia.in/causes/ssdmt or https://fb.com/groups/ProposedLawDrafts ... roup_cover#
.
A different, but related proposed law-draft to manage 4 NATIONAL DEVALAYA --- namely Ram Janam Bhoomi, Krisha Janam Bhoomi, Kashi Vishvanath and Amarth -- is at https://fb.com/mehtarahulc/posts/10154682828176922
.
------------
.
Many proposals are what I called as "spanner proposals" mean only to ensure that govt control goes on. eg one proposal can be "lets to return temples to previous owners or heirs, but make it run by community". Fine. But proposer will give NO draft to enumerate what is community. Does it mean Hindus of districts? Hindus of State? Hindus of whole India? And most temples under Govt belong to some sect. So should a temple owned by sect be given to "all Hindus of district / state / India"? And even after it is given Hindus of district / state, where is the DRAFT to by which crores of Hindus of District / State / India can elect its head etc"?
/
IOW, my proposal is to give back temples to its owners and heirs. And one can come up egalitarian proposals like "no, lets give to community" !! But by not giving any DRAFT , what he essentially may be meaning is "lets not give it back to owner and let govt control go on" !!!
.
So to free temples from Govt control, we must have proposed legislation DRAFTS
.
----
.
Now I am requesting all congress / rss / aap supporters to give links to the DRAFTS that their parties have proposed to free Hindu temples from Govt control.
.

Peregrine
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Freeing Hindu Devalaya from Govt control - initiatives and status

Post by Peregrine » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:58 am

MehtaRahulC wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:23 am
I request supporters of various political parties such Congress / Bjp / AAP and other BRFites to post information they have about efforts various political and non political groups are taking to free temples from govt control, and return the temples back to their original trustees or Hindus
.
To be specific, I would request all to post information with links if possible, about LAW DRAFTS that different political parties in India have proposed to end govt control over Hindi Devalaya temples and what efforts they have done to get this laws passed.
MehtaRahulC Ji :

Does the Indian Government exercise control over Buddhist, Christian, Jain, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and Zoroastrian Places of Worship?

Please advise because if they do then it might be close to impossible, but, if not then the Hindus have their work cut out for them.
Cheers Image

MehtaRahulC
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Re: Freeing Hindu Devalaya from Govt control - initiatives and status

Post by MehtaRahulC » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:45 pm

Peregrine wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:58 am
Does the Indian Government exercise control over Buddhist, Christian, Jain, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and Zoroastrian Places of Worship?

Please advise because if they do then it might be close to impossible, but, if not then the Hindus have their work cut out for them.
Cheers Image
.
To the best of my info --- GoI has not taken over any such place. They have taken over only Hindu temples
.
------------------
.
The way GoI takes over temple is
.
(1) Temples have 10s of owners or trustees. eg some temples have 500-800 owners !! Thats because say a king or some priest made a temple say 800 years or 400 years ago. Say he gave it to 1 to 5 priests. Then their 10-20 sons become owners. And then their 30-50 sons become owners and so on. So by 10-20 generations, there can be 500 owners. And their share will NOT be same. eg say X started temple and has sons A, B C, D And E. So each has 20%. Now say (A, B, C, D E) had (1,2, 3, 4, 5) sons. These 15 sons will have (20% , 20%/2 = 10%, 20%/3 = 6.67%, 20%/4 = 4%, 20% / 5 = 4%) share.
.
(2) Now there will be disputes between heirs and owners. Some owner may have sold stake to some, but his son after death can come and claim back. In some temples, son's right remains even if father has sold his rights and so on. Each temple had its own traditions --- often unwritten and later codified.
.
(3) So now some owners will go to court - judge will say "collector will administer the trust = temple till final decision is made"
.
(4) Final decision is never made !!!
.
So disputes are tools to usurp trust wealth !!
.
So we need procedure by which intra-owner and intra-heirs disputes get resolved SPEEDILY and with least unfairness. I have proposed eloberate Jury System for that. Left to judges, we will ONLY see what we are seeing today and worse.
.
---
.
And imo, you should also ask congress / rss / aap workers and district levels heads about what LAW-DRAFTS they are proposing to remove govt from controlling Hindu temples

KJo
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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by KJo » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:47 pm

Not a bit of progress on this issue by Modi sarkar.

Sridhar k
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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by Sridhar k » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:32 pm

Is not temple management a state subject?

In TN, temples run by HR and CE are far better than the ones run by Dharamapura Adhinam, a Hindu Mutt. I am pained by the sight of temples under their control.

The proble is that there are multiple religions within Sanadhan Dharma and the question is of severe infighting at least in TN. Have seen huge fights in even for.who will do pooja in some of the sri vaishnava temples between Vadakalai and Thenkalai. Still quite a few temples are run by Private trusts and once the temple starts making money, Govt steps in. There is fight amongst various interest groups within our fold to keep control of temples. Currently happening in 1000 year old Shiva temple in the neck of my woods

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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by Deans » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:12 am

MehtaRahulC wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:23 am
I request supporters of various political parties such Congress / Bjp / AAP and other BRFites to post information they have about efforts various political and non political groups are taking to free temples from govt control, and return the temples back to their original trustees or Hindus
.
To be specific, I would request all to post information with links if possible, about LAW DRAFTS that different political parties in India have proposed to end govt control over Hindi Devalaya temples and what efforts they have done to get this laws passed
.
Your draft law is very well written Rahulji.

KJo
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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by KJo » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:09 pm

Sridhar k wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:32 pm
Is not temple management a state subject?

In TN, temples run by HR and CE are far better than the ones run by Dharamapura Adhinam, a Hindu Mutt. I am pained by the sight of temples under their control.

The proble is that there are multiple religions within Sanadhan Dharma and the question is of severe infighting at least in TN. Have seen huge fights in even for.who will do pooja in some of the sri vaishnava temples between Vadakalai and Thenkalai. Still quite a few temples are run by Private trusts and once the temple starts making money, Govt steps in. There is fight amongst various interest groups within our fold to keep control of temples. Currently happening in 1000 year old Shiva temple in the neck of my woods
If it is, then has BJP done anything in the states that they run?

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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by Schmidt » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:20 am

Sridhar k wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:32 pm
Is not temple management a state subject?

In TN, temples run by HR and CE are far better than the ones run by Dharamapura Adhinam, a Hindu Mutt. I am pained by the sight of temples under their control.
Absolutely divorced from reality. The HR&CE in TN is one of the most corrupt bodies. God knows ( pun intended ) how many 1000s of acres of prime agricultural land these politicians have grabbed illegally and the temples have no way of fighting back. So many temple commercial properties are rented out at a fraction of their values and the squatters don't even pay these dues.

Also , do you know that TN HR &CE does not pay salaries to the priests. The only income for the priests is the dakshina we put on the archana plates.
Things are so dire that there is an absolute shortage of priests , esp in smaller temples. The next gen of these priestly families are giving up the profession and moving on to other careers.

My own village temple , a beautiful shrine over 1200 years old and one of the 108 divya desams - gets its priest from 100 kms away. The guy take a bus everyday , does the morning puja and goes back to his town where he takes some tuition to survive. The temple pays him 3000 Rs a month ( yes that is correct ). I pay my maid 8500 a month. My driver gets 15000 a month and he is not satisfied.

I donate approx 1 Lac a year towards its upkeep. When we needed to do some repairs and renovation , we had to get govt approval - they took over a year to just send their approval. Mind you , we the donors are paying for this , not a paisa comes from the govt.

Your other points about inter - denominational struggles are all very old cases - there are hardly any cases now. Everyone in the community knows the bigger dangers that lie outside and the need to stay united.

When I go to any temple , I don't out anything less that 100 Rs in the archana plates . These guys are not doing this for money but carrying on a noble profession . Even I would not be doing this if I were born in priest family.

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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by SSundar » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:15 am

Once a Lefty acquaintance of mine argued that the original reason TN government took over temples was because the priests begged the government to take over the temples and pay them fairly and regularly. The Zamindars and Dharmakarthas who ran these temples allegedly did not pay the priests well. Whether this claim is true or not is besides the point. If the GoTN isn't paying the temple priests, what is the point?

The emancipation of temples is not going to be easy. At least a good starting point could be a law that prohibits government takeover of ANY religious place of worship built after independence. Historic temples and those with archaeological significance are going to be a bit difficult to disentangle. Modern temples built after August 15th, 1947 should be mandated to be returned to the last management that owned them before the government takeover. That would be a GREAT start to signal the government's intent.

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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by Schmidt » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:30 am

Subramanian Swamy‏Verified account
@Swamy39

https://twitter.com/Swamy39/status/930305796633632768

SC bench of Justices Arun Mishra & Gowda today allowed me to file a WP for quashing all State HR& CE temple laws as unconstitutional. Great!

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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by Karthik » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:14 am

Taking away from govt control is one thing, whom to hand over is very important. Hope we are not caught between the devil and deep sea. Need to hand over temples to trust that has single minded focus on indic things.

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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by Sachin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:21 am

Karthik wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:14 am
Taking away from govt control is one thing, whom to hand over is very important. Hope we are not caught between the devil and deep sea. Need to hand over temples to trust that has single minded focus on indic things.
Agree 100%. From what I have seen in Kerala, this going to be a bit dicey. Many big temples of the day are generally patronised by certain communities. If they are managed by the state government Devaswom Boards, these boards have representation (of Hindus) from every caste, and even women. Now if such a temple has to be handed over to another Hindu entity, what would constitute such entity? A democractically elected body (which forms a trust, and then takes over the temple) may again upset a few apple carts. Because in such an election, certain castes (who at present are not well represented) would get an upper hand because of their bigger voter base.

Keeping in mind, the Kerala context; perhaps state managing the temple affairs is okay but with proper accounting system, and the temple management records available for every one's scrutiny. At present what happens is that the state government puts up a very bloated bill (for providing power, police bandobust etc.) to the state's own Devaswom Board. The Devaswom board would not challenge these bills and just pay the other departments (with the funds coming in from the temple donations).

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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by Sridhar k » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:28 am

Schmidt wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:20 am
Sridhar k wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:32 pm
Is not temple management a state subject?

In TN, temples run by HR and CE are far better than the ones run by Dharamapura Adhinam, a Hindu Mutt. I am pained by the sight of temples under their control.
Absolutely divorced from reality. The HR&CE in TN is one of the most corrupt bodies. God knows ( pun intended ) how many 1000s of acres of prime agricultural land these politicians have grabbed illegally and the temples have no way of fighting back. So many temple commercial properties are rented out at a fraction of their values and the squatters don't even pay these dues.

Also , do you know that TN HR &CE does not pay salaries to the priests. The only income for the priests is the dakshina we put on the archana plates.
Things are so dire that there is an absolute shortage of priests , esp in smaller temples. The next gen of these priestly families are giving up the profession and moving on to other careers.

My own village temple , a beautiful shrine over 1200 years old and one of the 108 divya desams - gets its priest from 100 kms away. The guy take a bus everyday , does the morning puja and goes back to his town where he takes some tuition to survive. The temple pays him 3000 Rs a month ( yes that is correct ). I pay my maid 8500 a month. My driver gets 15000 a month and he is not satisfied.



I donate approx 1 Lac a year towards its upkeep. When we needed to do some repairs and renovation , we had to get govt approval - they took over a year to just send their approval. Mind you , we the donors are paying for this , not a paisa comes from the govt.

Your other points about inter - denominational struggles are all very old cases - there are hardly any cases now. Everyone in the community knows the bigger dangers that lie outside and the need to stay united.

When I go to any temple , I don't out anything less that 100 Rs in the archana plates . These guys are not doing this for money but carrying on a noble profession . Even I would not be doing this if I were born in priest family.
Boss
Agree with most of what you say, priest living a tough life, hr and ce being corrupt etc. Hr and ce takes over only money making temples to loot.

However you are wrong about me being divorced about reality. I visit old temples in TN on an average 2 per week. Just compare the functioning of temples between some of dharmapuram adhinam temples and hr and ce.

The fights over control of temples in private temple is a big reality. Have a lawyer neighbor who handles a lot of such cases. When the temples makes money and the fight breaks out, hynas of Hr and ce steps in.

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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by Sridhar k » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:08 am

Karthik wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:14 am
Taking away from govt control is one thing, whom to hand over is very important. Hope we are not caught between the devil and deep sea. Need to hand over temples to trust that has single minded focus on indic things.
Exactly. I was alluding to this only. Problem is that quite a lot of people come in to trusts for money to be made. For some of them like my one set of relatives, it is a sense of entitlements that since they help in temple mgmt, they are entitled to take money, even though they started on a right earnest. Sivan sothu kula nasam fell on deft ears and after a decade, their kids health took a beating, they stopped

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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by MehtaRahulC » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:46 pm

MehtaRahulC wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:23 am
I request supporters of various political parties such Congress / Bjp / AAP and other BRFites to post information they have about efforts various political and non political groups are taking to free temples from govt control, and return the temples back to their original trustees or Hindus
.
To be specific, I would request all to post information with links if possible, about LAW DRAFTS that different political parties in India have proposed to end govt control over Hindi Devalaya temples and what efforts they have done to get this laws passed
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Deans wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:12 am

Your draft law is very well written Rahulji.
AWMTA :) . and no ji pls. Just Rahul or Rahulbhai will suffice
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Temple being "looted" by owners is NOT same as temple being looted by Govt. And now a new game has come. A particular "Hinduvaadi" and "non-political" outfit, and a particular "hinduvaadi" political party give "deal" to temple owners --- appoint our leaders and workers as trustee or else we will impose govt control over temple !! And then these workers and leaders of these two Hinduvaadi outfits will gradually expel all existing trustee and fill whole trustee board with their men. So temple is NOT under Govt control, but under control of these "Hinduvaadi" workers and leaders !! Congress could NOT do this --- because devout Hindus did NOT trust congress leaders and congress workers.
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The leaders and workers of that particular Hinduvaadi party and Hinduvaadi non-political outfit give elaborate reason why their workers should take over the temples. As per them, temple money should be used for community welfare. And existing temple owners dont do so. And so temples should be taken away from control of existing owners and given to leaders of Hinduvaadi outfits. IOW, in the name of community welfare, they usurp temples.
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This is similar to way Vatican usurped many Pagan temples across Europe and converted all of them into churches !! Vatican also used to force its priest to remain unmarried.
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So we have now two tasks at hand. How to remove govt control over temples and how to ensure that "leaders" and "workers" of political outfits dont takeover the temples !!

la.khan
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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by la.khan » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:32 am


la.khan
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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by la.khan » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:35 am

When Hindu temples are freed from govt control, they can use the model implemented by Sri Krishna Deva Raya in governance of temple affairs.

How The Great Vijayanagar Rayas And Temple Administrators Made Tirupati One Of India’s Richest Temples

Sachin
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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by Sachin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:48 pm


MehtaRahulC
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Re: Freeing Hindu Temples From Govt Control

Post by MehtaRahulC » Mon May 21, 2018 1:56 am

whole Dera Saccha Sauda complex is now almost a ghost town. Haryana RSS govt and judges are appointing administrators on all Dera trusts who manage their properties and bank accounts !! All Dera officers are threatened to resign !!

The Dera hospital which served 1000s of patients is now all closed.

Suffices to say --- Modiji's goal was NOT just to imprison Sant Ram Rahim Gurmeetji, but to crush whole DSS. The made up rape case and sham trial were just pretexts. The real motive was to finish whole DSS. Why Modiji , established Hindu saints like Shankracharyas, RSS leaders, rss workers, Akali leaders, akali workers and Missionarfies all wanted Dera to end? Well, each had his own nefarious motives.

Most followers of Dera were Dalits. Lets see what they do next.

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