The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

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Vriksh
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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:04 pm

@Krishna,

The above makes me also very concerned that some sections in old school corporate India is tacitly backing Scamgress. How the TF did Scamgress earn enough money to run a high-decibel campaign in 3 states. With Modi, growth has seen hiccups and not really taken off. But he has stopped crony capitalism and introduced laws to end it. IMHO, that's another reason for the scamgress win. Purchased votes same as in Ka, where it occurred in massive form.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Mort Walker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:05 pm

krisna wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:58 pm

At least in my circle - some have turned back. probing some and recalling their interaction in the past- found themselves or someone in the family, village city etc have had their contacts with scamgress ecosytem . As NaMo is not allowing them to dip their beaks to make money and establish corrupt networks , they are salivating at the prospects of scamgress win.
Basically just parasites and nothing else.
Which begs the question, are Indians inherently corrupt as part of their national character?

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:06 pm

Mort Walker wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:01 pm
Vriksh wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:43 pm
Your last words puncture the entire linear thing, which is my point which you don't get. That development spending which is used to drive wasteful consumption, while the beneficiaries of the largesse don't want skills but freebies.. that sort of developmental spending is creating a fake growth, on the backs of the real economic engine that is driving those islands in india generating real growth. And what happens when those engines are more and more outcompeted by the rest of the world, having seen no investment as all investment was diverted towards freebies? See Bangalore's infra.
I disagree that development spending is driving wasteful consumption and the beneficiaries all want freebies. I would say about 1/3 of beneficiaries want freebies. Getting freebies isn't limited to the poor. I do know capable engineering college graduates who don't want to work in the private sector and will sit around until they get government jobs.
Poor, rich everyone wants freebies. 1/3rd is a huge underestimate, I'd say 3/4ths.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:17 pm

Corporate India has always backed Cong. They have been in power for close to 60 years. Like any empire/dynasty they will have their people in every nook and corner of the country. That is why it is necessary for BJP to win elections to bring down this machinery. Otherwise it will be back to old business.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:18 pm

Mort, Indian businesses don't give sales bills in Jackson Heights, NY, USA. There have been several raids. Take that.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:22 pm

Supratik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:17 pm
Corporate India has always backed Cong. They have been in power for close to 60 years. Like any empire/dynasty they will have their people in every nook and corner of the country. That is why it is necessary for BJP to win elections to bring down this machinery. Otherwise it will be back to old business.
Perhaps this was a warning shot against the BJPs bows as well. Its like Jagat Seth and the EIC.

I really loathe how this map has changed color. Oh well. Back to the grindstone. We just HAVE to win 2019 and I hope the RSS realizes it and pulls out all stops after this darn loss.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharatiya ... arties.svg

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by krisna » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:30 pm

Mort Walker wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:05 pm
<snip>
Which begs the question, are Indians inherently corrupt as part of their national character?
please avoid extrapolating the whole issue. Indians are not corrupt basically. A huge amount of honesty present in Indians. We have the lowest in all bad things in a society. the reason is our relatively better moral fiber/compass despite very poor law and judicial support. I wont go into details of these. not relevant here. Same Indians have the best honesty and law-abiding persons in foreign countries. This can not magically come just by migration.

The corrupt issue is propagandu to berate Indians and put them down. 1)Some are corrupt- nothing can be done as in any society. 2)many are made to become corrupt because of scamgress ecosystem.we can get things done only if we grease the system because scamgress during its long periods have made Indians into this issue.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Sicanta » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:35 pm

Maybe we are over-reacting. The UP election which was said to be the vote on demonetisation amongst various issues was won handsomely. But even if the middle class is giving a late reaction, give them the damn freebies. It's not as if FRBM targets for fiscal and revenue deficit have not been delayed every year over a decade. Whats one more year. And I would rather have not so optimum situation under modi than plain destruction under congress

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:37 pm

That is because they will be in jail in foreign countries if they did what they do in India and also more educated people migrate to advanced countries.
They will spit jutkha on newly painted pillars in Connaught place but will not spit even in their homes in Singapore for fear of getting caned.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:48 pm

krisna wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:30 pm
Mort Walker wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:05 pm
<snip>
Which begs the question, are Indians inherently corrupt as part of their national character?
please avoid extrapolating the whole issue. Indians are not corrupt basically. A huge amount of honesty present in Indians. We have the lowest in all bad things in a society. the reason is our relatively better moral fiber/compass despite very poor law and judicial support. I wont go into details of these. not relevant here. Same Indians have the best honesty and law-abiding persons in foreign countries. This can not magically come just by migration.

The corrupt issue is propagandu to berate Indians and put them down. 1)Some are corrupt- nothing can be done as in any society. 2)many are made to become corrupt because of scamgress ecosystem.we can get things done only if we grease the system because scamgress during its long periods have made Indians into this issue.
I wish I was as optimistic as you are, but honesty, moral fiber etc are affectations of the middle class. Those who emigrate become middle class if they aren't already and pick up traits of local societies and are subject to strict law enforcement so are forced to be honest.

Vast majority of low-income groups in most Indian states will do anything to survive. They don't have the luxury of all this navel gazing.
Those in urban areas see luxury around themselves and stealing, theft are all too common.
Many historical trading classes see paying taxes etc as being stupid & unfair. They will do anything to avoid it.
Go to any Indian city right now and a full 3rd of the shops are still running a parallel non GST, non bill economy. Openly.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:50 pm

Sicanta wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:35 pm
Maybe we are over-reacting. The UP election which was said to be the vote on demonetisation amongst various issues was won handsomely. But even if the middle class is giving a late reaction, give them the damn freebies. It's not as if FRBM targets for fiscal and revenue deficit have not been delayed every year over a decade. Whats one more year. And I would rather have not so optimum situation under modi than plain destruction under congress
UP election was won precisely because of demonetization.
Modi and Shah overnight made all the money available to the political parties worthless. They couldn't buy loyalty as was their usual wont.
Agree about freebies. NOTA is a real threat, EPFO, LTCG.. the list of silly attempts by Modi & Jaitley to cheese off the middle class are by now legion while opening the tax spigot to farmers, dalits, SC/ST, this/that. They can still do something and I hope this loss was meant to knock some sense into their decisions.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Sicanta » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:57 pm

While certainly a reason, it would more affect the hand to mouth class who can be bought off with money power, their daily lives being a constant struggle. But it doesn't explain the sudden willingness of middle class to vote bjp. They all knew that bjp was in support of gst, constantly heard modi say - na khaunga, na khane dunga. They all knew what they were voting into power

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:17 pm

Middle class is of two segment. Salaried and trading. It is trading class who have become anti-BJP due to GST, IT, demo. They live a dual life bhagwa-patriotic on the outside, cheats on the inside. At least those who are with Cong are honest that they don't care about corruption. In UP poor/lower middle class voted for BJP. So loss in trader vote got compensated. In MP/CG/RJ the poor have voted Cong as they offered goodies while BJP thought "itna kaam kiya, vote to milega". I see that stupidity even in Amit Shah's interview. He thinks they will vote becoz they got freebies. They are looking for more freebies. That is Indian electorate for you.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:25 pm

Sicanta wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:57 pm
While certainly a reason, it would more affect the hand to mouth class who can be bought off with money power, their daily lives being a constant struggle. But it doesn't explain the sudden willingness of middle class to vote bjp. They all knew that bjp was in support of gst, constantly heard modi say - na khaunga, na khane dunga. They all knew what they were voting into power
They thought na khaunga, na khane dunga. meant Govt scams. Not their low level tax evasion.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:28 pm

Supratik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:17 pm
Middle class is of two segment. Salaried and trading. It is trading class who have become anti-BJP due to GST, IT, demo. They live a dual life bhagwa-patriotic on the outside, cheats on the inside. At least those who are with Cong are honest that they don't care about corruption. In UP poor/lower middle class voted for BJP. So loss in trader vote got compensated. In MP/CG/RJ the poor have voted Cong as they offered goodies while BJP thought "itna kaam kiya, vote to milega". I see that stupidity even in Amit Shah's interview. He thinks they will vote becoz they got freebies. They are looking for more freebies. That is Indian electorate for you.
Well said.

Also to add even Salaried class is frustrated because they see all other groups making out like bandits and they feel they are being treated with contempt (which to a large degree they are).

Guys like me who vote on relative intangibles ("RJB/NatSec/Hinduphobia/Appeasement politics/Honesty in Central procurement) are the exception not the rule. We are core BJP voters who grit our teeth and vote BJP no matter what. The rest keenly compare and do shopping.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:33 pm

One of the reasons why Cong won 2009 was the massive loan waiver. Modi has to suck his belly, hold his nose and do similar things.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Sicanta » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:34 pm

Supratik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:17 pm
MP/CG/RJ the poor have voted Cong as they offered goodies while BJP thought "itna kaam kiya, vote to milega". I see that stupidity even in Amit Shah's interview. He thinks they will vote becoz they got freebies. They are looking for more freebies. That is Indian electorate for you.
Well it was stupid of bjp to think so. 5 years is not enough to move sufficiently on many 'intangibles' given various constraints. But it ought to have been enough forpeople to leave their bad habits ingrained in their constant struggle to survive
Last edited by Sicanta on Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:34 pm

There is also the upper caste disenchantment thanks to the SC/ST bill fiasco. For once in their lives, hizhonners made a decision to repeal an unjust law. BJP could have done nothing or just let the situation escalate to the point they made some half-hearted representation to the SC. Instead, up they jumped to make it a law, and Modi bragged about it in speech after speech. I overnight saw many folks offline and online turn viscerally angry at BJP. It was a stupid move clearly intended for votebanking and the people who historically voted BJP were pretty angry and still are. I hope kicking the BJP in state elections has burnt out their anger.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Sicanta wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:34 pm
Supratik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:17 pm
MP/CG/RJ the poor have voted Cong as they offered goodies while BJP thought "itna kaam kiya, vote to milega". I see that stupidity even in Amit Shah's interview. He thinks they will vote becoz they got freebies. They are looking for more freebies. That is Indian electorate for you.
Well it was stupid of bjp to think so. 5 years is not enough to move sufficiently on many 'intangibles' given various constraints. But it ought to have been enough forpeople to leave their bad habits ingrained in their constant struggle to survive
5 years? more like 20, or 30.
My cook makes 24 odd k per month across multiple houses. Her husband makes anywhere from 60k to 1L+. He's a low level contractor + mason.
Per conventional rules, they are "middle class".
They own land. Are related to all sorts of political fixers. Want every gadget that the so called upper middle class have. She has a better washing machine than I do. She's upset that others have caste freebies and she doesn't (but has fake ration card, has illegal water/electricity connection) :facepalm: She spends every dime she gets (expensive clothes, gold etc). Her caste group in my state votes Congress 24/7. She gives two hoots about "leaving any bad habits". She is very upset GOI/we/you all are not giving her more to have more bad habits. :facepalm:

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:45 pm

Sicanta, it is going to be a gradual process as India is a vastly populous country. Even then per capita GDP is only 2000 dollars. Maybe when it is 10000 dollars and most people have proper jobs. Till then it is going to be like this no matter what Modi or you and I think.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Sicanta » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:55 pm

Well, till then, it all comes down to this - who would I rather see splurge the tax kitty - greedy, not-thinking-long crowd or BIF who will actively work to make sure India never reaches its potential. I will prefer the former

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by rhytha » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:39 pm

Mort Walker wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:05 pm
krisna wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:58 pm

At least in my circle - some have turned back. probing some and recalling their interaction in the past- found themselves or someone in the family, village city etc have had their contacts with scamgress ecosytem . As NaMo is not allowing them to dip their beaks to make money and establish corrupt networks , they are salivating at the prospects of scamgress win.
Basically just parasites and nothing else.
Which begs the question, are Indians inherently corrupt as part of their national character?
I had come to this conclusion some time back. You need to do some psyco-analysis of the Indian voter.

Indians are generally corrupt.

While in western countries they do have the corrupt, entitled and the lazy class, they mostly would be 25% and at most 30%. Most are intellectually honest and work hard (I am not including behaviours like racist, bible thumping etc in this which are bad, but that's for outsiders, but within themselves they are honest to a degree ) and the governance also is more effective which reduces general handouts and other populist measures we see in other SE Asian countries.

here, I think it would be 65-70%.

Indians voters don't want roads, trains effective governance etc though they complain about it day in and day out. The complainers might be the 20% non-entitled middle class to a certain extent. For the rest Their general behivor vis the gov is entitlement, they need everything, but would not like to follow rules ("I don't know, please excuse this time","I am illiterate and poor, I don't know the rules"), people who can afford not want to pay taxes ("why should I pay taxes, the politicians are corrupt anyway", "what have done with the taxes so far I had provided, I got nothing for the taxes I paid").

I feel Modi /Shah are challengers who swam against the tide to reach where they are by merit within BJP as well as GOV, they are basically high performers. So in thier mind/ general broad thinking they would think the Indian voter needs Vikas and would vote for them if they provide Vikas as per thier agreement with the electorate, but most times this does not work ( it did not work for Vajpayee, it did not work for CBN, 2014 is a aberration, UPA was in deep ICU and Modis presenditial type campaign was too good). Indian electorate want freebies, very cheap petrol prices, cheap Medicare, 2 tickets to US from goi etc and THEN good governance, roads, hospitals, no corruption from politicians, babus and they want this yesterday AND they should not be taxed and will not follow the rules.

If politicians are corrupt, the voters are corrupt too. Like politics is business for politicians, election/governance is a business for electorate , they need personal benefits either via quota, freebies etc. Benefits to Society/State/Country are lower priority in general. Strangly in West individualist society votes for the communal benefits, while India being a community based society votes based on individual benefits.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by hanumadu » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:04 pm

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 110665.cms

Stupid TOI does not let me copy but the gist is...

An internal audit of the Agusta company found the end use of 276cr dubious.
SP Tyagi and his relatives are paid 11k dollars per month for few/several months.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by hanumadu » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:07 pm

Vriksh wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:34 pm
There is also the upper caste disenchantment thanks to the SC/ST bill fiasco. For once in their lives, hizhonners made a decision to repeal an unjust law. BJP could have done nothing or just let the situation escalate to the point they made some half-hearted representation to the SC. Instead, up they jumped to make it a law, and Modi bragged about it in speech after speech. I overnight saw many folks offline and online turn viscerally angry at BJP. It was a stupid move clearly intended for votebanking and the people who historically voted BJP were pretty angry and still are. I hope kicking the BJP in state elections has burnt out their anger.
Even an idiot can see the SC/ST bill was a congress ploy. To break either the UC/OBC votes or the SC/ST votes.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:14 pm

Well congratulations, the idiots who saw that fell into that ploy face first and lost a huge chunk of their UC/OBC base. Don't know whether to laugh and cry at "everything is a Kangress ploy" or " BJP keeps falling for the ploys". Don't know which is worse!

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