The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

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JohnTitor
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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by JohnTitor » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:13 pm

Absolutely Supratik.

Modi should just open the purse this fiscal. Make income tax start at 10lac, remove 30% slab, reduce cess etc, give out sops to farmers, increase subsidy for LPG for poor etc... There's no point being fiscally disciplined if you aren't going to come to power..

Mark my words, if congoons win, they will change GST by arm twisting states and ammend it with a million holes so you can evade tax.

But I doubt they would do any of it.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:26 pm

If they don't do it they will loose.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by hanumadu » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:19 pm

BJP is slowly closing the noose on congress in the Rafale issue.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/12 ... -full.html
The PAC noted in its report, “The committee is disappointed to note that the failure of HAL/ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Ministry of Defence to provide the required number of aircraft has adversely affected the combat potential of the IAF resulting in security threat to the country… The ADA/HAL have also not been able to provide IAF with even a single production standard trainer aircraft till date. Further, since HAL could not augment its capacity in line with the demand of the IAF, the IAF will have to depend on imported aircraft for a longer time, given its dwindling squadron strength.
But there’s a problem that could prove a political embarrassment. The PAC is headed by Indian politician Mallikarjun Kharge, who happens to be a senior leader of the opposition Congress Party, which under the leadership of its president Rahul Gandhi, has embarked on a crusade to project Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) as a corporation that was betrayed and abandoned for business that was rightfully its own.
There’s more that could be tricky for the Congress’s crusade for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

In March 2010, less than a year before the then Congress-led UPA government shortlisted the Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon in the M-MRCA contest for 126 fighters, the Indian MoD, helmed at the time by defence minister A.K. Antony declared to a Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence that “With the current order book position, HAL does not envisage any spare capacity during the next 10 years.”
Image

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Raju » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:32 pm

What I have gleaned from watching Indian politics over the years and BJP politics over time is that-

BJP is not fighting for hindus, it is just using hindus to come to power. So what sets apart BJP from other parties in India is that they use hindu psychology to obtain power. Once they come into power it is all same old. This is the reason why supporters of BJP get all emotional about it and after obtaining power BJP doesn't bat an eyelid about what supporters feel. This is actually the same what congress does to its well meaning supporters and it does shaft everyone of them and totally delivers itself to moneybags and their brand of politics.

Only real difference between BJP and congress is the control exerted over BJP by RSS, who do not allow BJP to be led way too astray by corporates. As a result, an example, RSS cadre didn't canvass for BJP muchly in these assembly elections and even AS & NM got the message and kept away.

What I do not know about RSS and BJP relation is whether their terms for support are different from what they publically state to be and BJP is secretly complying with their demands like contstitutional amendments or passing certain laws without much fanfare or are they really ungreatful and ignore RSS after coming into power. Or if RSS is making statements just for public consumption about BJPs misperformance and secretly making them comply on issues what RSS believes is more important.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:45 pm

Vikas wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:52 am
So till now, What we have learnt on this forum is:
1. If you don't vote for BJP, you are a closet Congressi and worse even a Non-Hindu
In 2018, yes you are.
2. BJP lost 3 states, Damn!! Restrict voting rights to only Tax payers
This is nonsense. A small minority may feel that, and they are entitled to their opinion. Nobody truly advocates this.
3. Everyone watches TV debates and gets influenced by aggressive Macho Opposition spokesperson while nice and sweet BJP spokesperson are bullied and can't fight fire with fire
These debates are among the most useless things on television, but they do illustrate a pro-Congress bias in many channels and perhaps the opposite in one or two. As far as the participants are concerned, yes, it is also obvious (if you pay attention) that the non-BJP spokespersons all gang-up on the BJP guy and keep shouting all the time drowning out whatever he/she is saying. Anchors allow this to go on like in a free-for-all. Absolutely unwatchable most of the time. This would not be allowed in Western media but then I suppose the audience in India feels differently.

4. Media is sold out to Congress and BJP has no control over the media and narrative

Other than Zee TV, this is absolutely true. If the BJP were vindictive like Congress, NDTV would be shut down and their owners/anchors would be in prison. I highly recommend Sree Iyer's book "NDTV Frauds".
5. Abrahamics essentially have no patriotism and are focused only in increasing their population
Absolute rubbish. Most of them are Nationalists yet a significant minority do work against the national interest, wittingly or otherwise. And yes, the muslims do have a higher fertility rate.
6. A lot of people who voted for BJP essentially are congress supporters
Not necessarily true, perhaps some wanted to get a taste of life under BJP and did not like it.
7. Most of the voters are corrupt, lazy, free loaders and interested in freebies only
A certain section definitely is and wasn't that obvious, at least in this latest election? See here:

Don't know if this is really true or fake news, but isn't is plausible?
8. Development doesn't get you votes, Ram Temple and UCC would
Not true, each of those things has value, but I think any reasonable person would consider the first to be most important. I am a proud Hindu and yet I too would put the RJB and UCC on hold for now, if the nation as a whole needed funds/energies/plans diverted that way.
9. DeMo and GST were the greatest financial exercise in the world and if you find fault with it, then "Kitna gaya" and somehow you don't want to participate in nations progress

Indeed they were, if you listen to people who know more about Indian economics than the Harvard types who live in their own ivory towers. Not perfectly implemented and there are issues. But the benefits are obvious if you look at the increase in tax base and revenues. Lot of work to do and perhaps we can hope the ones who deposited large chunks of money will finally be brought to book.
10. Every new tax Payee is basically hating Modi
Again an overgeneralization and hyperbole. Those who do not like paying taxes certainly would not be happy, but the sensible ones would see that in the end it is for the good of the nation and the future of their children.
11. A Shah and Modi are magicians who can never lose election and to Congress, Impossible
Ah, I only wish that were true. They too are human and therefore fallible.

Sadly, despite your sarcasm, most of what you have posted is partly or wholly true, especially the bolded parts. I was a congress supporter all my life before I left India. To me it is not important who leads the country, as long as they have the best interest of the nation at heart. Unfortunately, the Congress has let the country down repeatedly. The only person who came close to Modi was LBS and he died an unfortunate and premature death. PVNR was a visionary (read my friend Sanjaya Baru's book on him) but after him it was indeed the deluge.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:25 pm

Supratik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:49 am
You have to bribe the poor and lower class voters again to offset the loss in trader votes. This is the reality of the Indian electorate and the legacy of soc-sec who have kept the pop poor and struggling for survival. Modi likes to create assets rather than bribe but I don't see any other way for his re-election.
The whole demon thing was done to suck up liquid cash out of the cash for votes scam the opposition ran before the UP elections. But it has cost BJP its historical base in the trader class apparently. Never come between these dudes and their money. And the poor and lower class voters regard the whole indian state as a giant balloon which is full of notes and its their right to get as much money out of it as possible. The lack of moral fiber in our post independence oh-so-progressive society has to be seen to be believed. Meanwhile, the middle class which was looking at Modi as a superman, is super frustrated, about Modi's gyan about "this yojana, that yojana, for the poor people etc while his finance minister adds insult to injury by harping on tax evasion by the salaried class" while public services at state level remain pathetic, Govt servants remain arrogant, the media and the corrupt/INC/left ecosystem prance around while Modi and co keep quiet, the upper castes in the north especially who saw the once in a lifetime SC/ST bill repeal by a SC disappear double quick as BJP scrambled to save votes.. the entire thing has become a toxic mess. Unfortunately Shah and Modi got too overconfident even as local BJP govts were pathetic. My friends in MP were no big fans of Shivraj and Raj guys (from the upper castes esp.) were spitting fire at BJP.. yet all this was ignored. The hubris has now bit them, and I only hope Modi and Jaitley see some sense before 2019. I have not seen any political party as idiotic as the BJP is, in that it ignores its core voters interests and ends up acting like its opponent in an effort to appear oh-so-moderate.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:30 pm

JohnTitor wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:13 pm
Absolutely Supratik.

Modi should just open the purse this fiscal. Make income tax start at 10lac, remove 30% slab, reduce cess etc, give out sops to farmers, increase subsidy for LPG for poor etc... There's no point being fiscally disciplined if you aren't going to come to power..

Mark my words, if congoons win, they will change GST by arm twisting states and ammend it with a million holes so you can evade tax.

But I doubt they would do any of it.
Forget GST, we will end up like SoKo with half of the population converted.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:54 pm

It is unfair to say BJP govts did not do anything in RJ, MP, CG. They brought this three states out of BIMARU status. Just look at per capita GDP. It was near UP/BH. Now it is in middle ranks similar to WB.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Mort Walker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:07 pm

Aditya_V wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:21 am
Main reason is educational and mass media indorctination
Precisely. The education system makes compliant INC drones out of individuals. It is clear now why Republicans in the US jump on public school curriculums. I disagree with them, but see their point.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:18 pm

Supratik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:54 pm
It is unfair to say BJP govts did not do anything in RJ, MP, CG. They brought this three states out of BIMARU status. Just look at per capita GDP. It was near UP/BH. Now it is in middle ranks similar to WB.
Supratik, its all relative. As they grew so did India. So to the localites, the state is the BJP, all their local warts, corruption etc is all BJP. I grew up in Diggy Raja's rule, I am an exception remembering the "old days". The rest only remember now, and they see the huge difference between MP, RJ, CG and their "foreign trip" or social media or fact they have to go to south or mumbai for "real jobs" or read into the local media's stuff about this scam, that scam. And comparing it to WB.. isn't that itself reflective of how far we have to go.
My MP friends (few as remain) are rarely very fond of Shivraj etc. Some are openly contemptuous. It could be because some are very dhimmi/p-sec, but there is also the element of truth that Shivraj was no Modi and most of these regional satraps are actually skating by because Modi retains a good rep and his speeches got them the few extra votes, and they enjoyed their good times on that.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:27 pm

Mort Walker wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:07 pm
Aditya_V wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:21 am
Main reason is educational and mass media indorctination
Precisely. The education system makes compliant INC drones out of individuals. It is clear now why Republicans in the US jump on public school curriculums. I disagree with them, but see their point.
And what did Javdekar do. Came on TV and made a proud confession that no saffronization of the education system was done and all remains as it was. Mind you, when appointed, we were all cock a hoop about how great this guy would be. He's no Goyal or Gadkari. More like an Uma Bharti looks like.
Last edited by Vriksh on Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Mort Walker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:27 pm

What people miss is that the tax base has improved where human development, health care, and education spending is increasing a percentage of GDP in the last 4 years. The total number of poor is down overall and as a percentage. India is on the cusp of breaking out from a 3rd world country to developing country like South Korea and China.

The INC coming back in 2019 will indeed poke holes in the tax base expansion and keep India as a dirty 3rd world country for at least another generation.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:29 pm

People expected miracles from Modi. He did deliver way more than anybody else could have in the time he had, despite the intense opposition he faced. If you look at most metrics, he has indeed achieved major growth in several areas. The states run by the BJP have also prospered. Yet, the lament goes on, both here and in the media.

Yes, what he has not done is support Hindu causes openly. However, even there, appointing Yogi as the CM of UP was a masterstroke and through his proxy, a lot more has been done in UP for Hindus than by any previous government.

I doubt very much that Modi is apathetic or unaware of the Hindu ethos and what the majority wants. At the same time he is also very much cognizant of the consequences of partisanship in a diverse nation like India where the forces aligned against Hindus are so powerful. He will need to consolidate his position and his power. He too is fighting a war for the soul of India, in his own way. The first major battle is with the Congress, specifically the Dynasty. Once that is neutralized or rendered powerless, real progress can begin.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:33 pm

Mort, the INC and Left have created an entire mindset wherein everything is given for free to the "right people". The right people are minorities, dalits, SC/ST, and the poor - in that order. People are having 3 kids, constructing houses, enjoying a full blown middle class lifestyle without a single earning member - because free rice/rations, Govt loans etc. This is the reality. I had a guy working for me, who didn't give a hoot about his job, who was constructing a large house on a plot which he got via some Govt handout, had more insurance than I did (all Govt freebies), food etc no issue (as ration shop, subsidy en masse).

With this kind of leakage - forget about ever becoming a proper developed country.

In CG, houses remain unconstructed, because local labor won't turn up. An acquaintance stopped construction because of this. Moved into a partially completed house.
In KA, local businesses hire Biharis because the local guys take a months salary and won't work for 2-3 month
And those Biharis have to go to KA etc to work, and locally, will elect Pappu Yadav because he is a Yadav.. this is their mindset (as proudly narrated to me by one more Bihari)

Good luck in translating all those fancy GDP figures to a corresponding linear development on the ground.
Last edited by Vriksh on Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Mort Walker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:34 pm

Vriksh wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:18 pm
Supratik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:54 pm
It is unfair to say BJP govts did not do anything in RJ, MP, CG. They brought this three states out of BIMARU status. Just look at per capita GDP. It was near UP/BH. Now it is in middle ranks similar to WB.
Supratik, its all relative. As they grew so did India. So to the localites, the state is the BJP, all their local warts, corruption etc is all BJP. I grew up in Diggy Raja's rule, I am an exception remembering the "old days". The rest only remember now, and they see the huge difference between MP, RJ, CG and their "foreign trip" or social media or fact they have to go to south or mumbai for "real jobs" or read into the local media's stuff about this scam, that scam. And comparing it to WB.. isn't that itself reflective of how far we have to go.
My MP friends (few as remain) are rarely very fond of Shivraj etc. Some are openly contemptuous. It could be because some are very dhimmi/p-sec, but there is also the element of truth that Shivraj was no Modi and most of these regional satraps are actually skating by because Modi retains a good rep and his speeches got them the few extra votes, and they enjoyed their good times on that.
And Kamalnath is better than Shivraj Chouhan? Kamalnath is the definition of chor.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:38 pm

Who remembers him? I do. You do, do the guys on the ground do. The 20-mid 30 year olds who all whisper about "vyapam scam".. nope. They voted for "change". They'll get it now and they deserve it, I hope they choke on it.

Meanwhile, they voted for chacha ji partly because of muscular Modi.. again, no logic, no GDP figures etc. Now that aura has clearly worn off, and that is worrisome.

MP is THE BJP heartland. How TF could Shah and Modi ignore it. Just smacks of hubris and that SC/ST repeal thing, mark my words, that was the biggest self-goal ever.
Last edited by Vriksh on Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Mort Walker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:40 pm

Vriksh wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Good luck in translating all those fancy GDP figures to a corresponding linear development on the ground.
An increase in development spending as percentage of GDP does make a difference. On the ground it is not a linear development, rather think of it as two steps up and one step down, but in time development increases. The situation today in MP and CG is considerably better in the last 10 years. Look for the return of naxals in CG now - it is only a matter of time.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:43 pm

Your last words puncture the entire linear thing, which is my point which you don't get. That development spending which is used to drive wasteful consumption, while the beneficiaries of the largesse don't want skills but freebies.. that sort of developmental spending is creating a fake growth, on the backs of the real economic engine that is driving those islands in india generating real growth. And what happens when those engines are more and more outcompeted by the rest of the world, having seen no investment as all investment was diverted towards freebies? See Bangalore's infra.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:49 pm

One of the guys who was working for me.
Me: "So if you get everything free, why are you working and why do you need the money"
Dude: "Wife wants cable TV".

Dude 2:
From Tripura. Convert. Wants to return as everything is "free" there. Will get an easy Govt job as he knows the local language. All you middle class strivers are jokers, dude only believed in Levis, and high name brands.

Dude 3:
Bihari: Wants to sleep all day and night, and offended the work isn't an easy ride. Proud supporter of Lalu. When cornered, promptly pulls out a mental health issue which entitles him (so he thinks) to be abusive. When he sees it doesn't fly, off he goes.

Dude 4:
Ka guy (like Dude1): Has insurance (multiple, provided by Govt), has land, house construction going on (which is why he's working, doesn't want to dip into savings), has 3 kids - all food etc, free from Govt. Please try and convince these guys about limiting population growth for the nation etc.
Wants salary to be e-transferred to random relations accounts. Main account likely has some loan linked, so why repay.

Dude 5:
SC chap. Uses that as an excuse to throw his weight around, be abusive etc. Sh!ts bricks when called out. But skedaddles with the help of the agent who sourced him, with the proviso he can always use his caste to do whatever he wants.

These are the guys Modi wants to buy off. Who are the future of India. Good luck.
Last edited by Vriksh on Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:50 pm

My relatives in MP have good things to say about Shivraj. And I am not sure if Kamalnath and Gehot are inspiring figures who will turn MP/RJ/CG into Japan. There will be a return to rampant evangelism and naxal violence. Let us see what happens.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Mort Walker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:51 pm

Vriksh wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:38 pm
Who remembers him? I do. You do, do the guys on the ground do. The 20-mid 30 year olds who all whisper about "vyapam scam".. nope. They voted for "change". They'll get it now and they deserve it, I hope they choke on it.

Meanwhile, they voted for chacha ji partly because of muscular Modi.. again, no logic, no GDP figures etc. Now that aura has clearly worn off, and that is worrisome.

MP is THE BJP heartland. How TF could Shah and Modi ignore it. Just smacks of hubris and that SC/ST repeal thing, mark my words, that was the biggest self-goal ever.
I remember Arjun Singh who stayed in power because if you went with money to him, you got your work done. In Dec. 1984, Warren Anderson of Union Carbide was let go in Bhopal by police escort to Delhi on Arjun Singh's instruction.

Even if the BJP lost by a few thousand votes in MP it is an absolute disaster. You are right, MP IS THE BJP HEARTLAND. If it can't win there it can win anywhere. I can guarantee the INC is coming back to the center with Pappu with the support of the mahachorbandhan in May 2019.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:55 pm

Supratik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:50 pm
My relatives in MP have good things to say about Shivraj. And I am not sure if Kamalnath and Gehot are inspiring figures who will turn MP/RJ/CG into Japan. There will be a return to rampant evangelism and naxal violence. Let us see what happens.
Japan? Good joke sir. Probably Fukushima.
Your relations are probably old-timers with a few grey hairs. They remember the "good old times".

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vriksh » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:57 pm

Mort Walker wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:51 pm
I remember Arjun Singh who stayed in power because if you went with money to him, you got your work done. In Dec. 1984, Warren Anderson of Union Carbide was let go in Bhopal by police escort to Delhi on Arjun Singh's instruction.
Ah what a noble guy Arjun Singh was. And VC Shukla. Those two.. less said the better...
Even if the BJP lost by a few thousand votes in MP it is an absolute disaster. You are right, MP IS THE BJP HEARTLAND. If it can't win there it can win anywhere. I can guarantee the INC is coming back to the center with Pappu with the support of the mahachorbandhan in May 2019.
I hope not. I hope people made a difference or distinction between state govts and central Govt. Modi is still having a great rep. Lets see.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by krisna » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:58 pm

Mort Walker wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:37 am
I've been finding out there are a lot closet Kangressi kangaroos all over including some near relatives who always appeared pro Hindu BJP, but reality was otherwise. In 2014 they kept quiet and said all nice things about Modi, but now the knives have come out.
How true. I have seen with my own circles both in reality and in social media sphere.

During 2014, the scamgress had gotten to rock bottom due to serious corruption issues. Hence they moved with wind temporarily to NaMo .
Now NaMo is hell bent on creatying assests and not bribery type of India with nothing to help the parasites.
They were keeping quiet as MAD combo were winning elelctions one after another barring Delhi. Bihar came back to NDA after intial hiccups.

But the big 3 states now which were supposed to NDA strenght(with GJ- near close win) seems to have emboldened the parasites to be more open about their favourites. It was always scamgress ecosystem which keeps them well oiled.

--------------------------------------
At least in my circle - some have turned back. probing some and recalling their interaction in the past- found themselves or someone in the family, village city etc have had their contacts with scamgress ecosytem . As NaMo is not allowing them to dip their beaks to make money and establish corrupt networks , they are salivating at the prospects of scamgress win.
Basically just parasites and nothing else.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Mort Walker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:01 pm

Vriksh wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:43 pm
Your last words puncture the entire linear thing, which is my point which you don't get. That development spending which is used to drive wasteful consumption, while the beneficiaries of the largesse don't want skills but freebies.. that sort of developmental spending is creating a fake growth, on the backs of the real economic engine that is driving those islands in india generating real growth. And what happens when those engines are more and more outcompeted by the rest of the world, having seen no investment as all investment was diverted towards freebies? See Bangalore's infra.
I disagree that development spending is driving wasteful consumption and the beneficiaries all want freebies. I would say about 1/3 of beneficiaries want freebies. Getting freebies isn't limited to the poor. I do know capable engineering college graduates who don't want to work in the private sector and will sit around until they get government jobs.

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