The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

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Primus
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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:32 am

srikumar wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:56 pm
Primus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:24 pm
When I first left India, my father, a government employee at a high position could barely afford to pay my airfare to the UK. Now, my cousins working for the government can take 2-3 trips every year to the US to visit their daughter. Of course airfares have become much cheaper vs. cost of living, but even then the difference is considerable.
Agree with what you wrote.....the only comment that seemed a little woozy.... was about the govt employere being able to take 2-3 trips to the US every year! All govt salary, PA, DA, bonus etc. are paid by the taxpayer....so I would not put the above in the 'Indian economy is booming and here is proof' category. I know that govt pays for one annual trip to 'hometown' or something like that. And maybe they are within their rights to ask for trips to US be paid. (but 2-3 times a year to US...on a job paid by taxes....either he must be pretty high up AND getting free accommodation ...seems more generous that most private sector jobs. ). (I know Air India employees get free trips on AI flights once a year or something like that) Other things....I am with you on that.
Husband and wife both physicians, upper level in the department, one is HOD working for central government hospitals in major metro. Live in hosue owned by family so getting HRA I suppose. Both take turns to visit daughter in the US. Between them, at least two trips total. No special bonuses or free airfare. Plus usual good living, travel abroad to other destinations as needed. Nothing lavish in their daily living, but a good life overall. When I was in India, the only time I could eat at a 'five-star' place was once a year on our wedding anniversary, for which we had saved up a special treat for ourselves. Of course I was still a 'resident' at the time.

Another example, as a fresh medical graduate I got Rs 425 per month in my internship, today at the same hospital an intern gets Rs. 45,000 per month. Cost of living certainly has not gone up a 100 times during this period. During this same time-frame, the income for physicians has gone in the reverse direction in the US. Not complaining in either case. It is good for India certainly. Life in India during my childhood was comfortable for us middle-class people but nothing compared to what the kids have these days in the same households. It was a different world then and I am so glad that children growing up in India have nearly the same opportunities as they do in the West - not quite there maybe, but getting close. That is what good governance does.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Haldiram » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:20 am

Delhi is a highly skewed sample as it has the highest per capita income (next to Goa), almost twice more than states like MAH, TN, KL, KT, GUJ, etc, and 10 times more than bottom placed Bihar.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Vikas » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:14 am

With the kind of population India has especially in the working class demographics, There will always be shortage of "Jobs". We still aren't that big a economy to offer jobs to everyone. Most of the work will be defined by self-business and not a traditional job.
As far Pappu and Bottle crying hoarse over no-jobs, No one blames Modiji for it except for those who anyways dislike ModiJi.
So if Bottle fails in this election, Italian Mafia has no fall back option and they will have to wait till Bob's kids grow up and take over congress or hope that people will grow tired of Modiji in 2024 and vote back Congress like they did in MP,CG and RJ.
Maybe Pappu should have got married and had Kids by now to have Plan-B.

About people like Shourie and Sinha or Kiriti Azad, everyone initially was goading ModiJi to clear this garbage box called Lootens and when ModiJi actually started doing that, they soon realized that they too had become part of the garbage and hence this hatred towards ModiJi. ABV could not pull it off because partly he too had become part of Lootens by the time he became PM and also was too decent to be ruthless towards the middleman and powerbroker culture.

@Kjo: Your comment about properties is darn right. My property in B'lore bought right before NM became PM hasn't appreciated a bit, Infact it is lagging behind the inflation, so yes black money to a large extent has been sucked out of the system.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:45 am

Haldiram wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:20 am
Delhi is a highly skewed sample as it has the highest per capita income (next to Goa), almost twice more than states like MAH, TN, KL, KT, GUJ, etc, and 10 times more than bottom placed Bihar.
True, but then the cost of living would also be much less. No different from the US or any other country.

The example of internship pay was not from Delhi BTW, but from the far South, albeit in a central government institution.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Triank » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:20 pm

Primus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:24 pm
shravanp wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:01 pm

On my FB pages, I have many desh contacts from my childhood friends etc...some of them, especially ladies, they quit their fulltime and have started business of their own. Someone's in flower sales, cake/pastries etc....and they seem to do good. There are takers, buyers and hence they are few years into it and doing well. Another cousin of mine is planning to grow aloe vera farming. Of course, in any such kind of endeavors there's always a risk of failure but that doesn't stop folks from doing 'khud ka dhanda'. These kind of avenues were unheard of, back in early 90s. Forget 80s. It was perpetual recession phase in India before that. I feel that despite of all media crying their lungs out "where are the job" are pointless whining. There wasn't a green pasture before either.
I just returned from a trip to India. The place is hopping, with people doing much better overall than they have in the past. I saw all shops are doing brisk business. Even in a small village outside of Delhi (all of this is now part of NCR), there are shops selling brands of alcohol no different from suburban New York. The local restaurants had people lined up waiting for over an hour to get in.

There is certainly more 'khush-hali' as I see it. of course those of us who left India a long time ago are caught in a time-warp of sorts and India meanwhile has marched on. Every time I visit, I see increasing traffic and noise, yes, but I also see the average guy having a better lifestyle. People do seem to be eating better and certainly the 'middle class' and salaried people are way better off. A simple example: When I first left India, my father, a government employee at a high position could barely afford to pay my airfare to the UK. Now, my cousins working for the government can take 2-3 trips every year to the US to visit their daughter. Of course airfares have become much cheaper vs. cost of living, but even then the difference is considerable.

All the increase in construction of sorts must be providing ample jobs for the lower socio-economic sector too. I don't know how this can be tracked accurately.

As ShravanP has said, there is a lot of growth in the small business sector, I have seen people in my own family and friends setting up very successful businesses from home, mainly to do with home-decor, costume jewelry, make-up salons, event planning and what not. It is a healthy India in ways that was unimaginable even 20 yrs ago.
to me, even from a cursory look at the photos of urban people of India from 70s to 90s, and then late 90s to now, something is quickly noticeable - the paunch, or the bulk, the 'health'..change in overall physique of people; is it a reflection of *something*? :roll:

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by rhytha » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:27 pm

Primus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:42 pm
Haldiram wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:25 pm
Primus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:53 am
Far worse is having people like Shourie and the two Sinhas who work like termites, undermining the party from within.
Shourie was out of the party in 2015 after he first criticized Modi and dubbed BJP as Congress+Cow. His party membership was allowed to "lapse" after he "failed" to pay the membership fee in a timely manner or something like that.

Yashwant Sinha quit the party in March 2018, not long after he went critical of Modi.

Only Shatrughan Sinha is still in the party.
I was a huge fan of Arun Shourie, have read all his books. Sadly, his ego got the better of him, how the mighty have fallen. Cannot believe somebody who was such a critic of the Cong Ecosystem and what they did to the nation for all those years suddenly turns around and becomes their ideological partner.

The others have become bitter because in the AS led BJP they found themselves without an office or a portfolio, in this sense, I feel that ABV for all his statesmanship failed to weed out the parasites within. Perhaps he had no other options, not having the mandate Modi received, although I think even if he had, he was too soft on certain issues.
#metoo was a fan of Arun Shourie and read his books. But not now, once he has gone senile.

I think Vajpayee and gang had to be very statesman like to survive since they lived in a time when congoons were in heights of power. They did break congoons hold on power one brick at a time by winning states slowly and creating a a strong political team, but not powerful enough to challenge them effectively since center/media/narrative was controlled by congress.

Vajpayee/Arun Shourie/Sinha/Murali Manahor Joshi are products of that time, they lived,worked for very long under congress rule and at times had friendly benefits which helped them survive. So they would not be able to turn around in 1999 and weed out the parasites, even if they know and point blank saw the termites eating the country.

Modi and AS grew independent of well outside congress eco-system in remote gujarat, they do not have enough stakes in the congress built eco-system(lutyens/english media etc) which is why they can take it headlong. Also they have a core gujj voters who will always accommodate them and support them if ever something goes wrong. Modi/AS is very aggressive on political front, they dont take anything lying down, strangely most state politicians are more aggressive, I don't know why, maybe if you lose once, you are back in the street, or something like that. Look at Jayalalitha, Mamta, Lalu, Mayavati etc they are all aggressive and don't take NO for an answer (wheather they are right or wrong is a different issue).

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:32 pm

Triank wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:20 pm

to me, even from a cursory look at the photos of urban people of India from 70s to 90s, and then late 90s to now, something is quickly noticeable - the paunch, or the bulk, the 'health'..change in overall physique of people; is it a reflection of *something*? :roll:
Yes, that is another observation I also made. Even in the younger generation, two things were very obvious. The men all had big bellies - I call it the 'prow of a boat' kind of paunch that sticks out at you, while the rest of the body may even be normal. Reflects good eating no doubt, but also a lack of exercise and discretion as to the choice of foods.

The second, most of the young women were far more 'westernized' than in the past, this should be expected given that most TV show hosts wear outfits that would be a little much even in America. However, what was refreshing to me was the complete ease and confidence with which the young Indian woman now carries herself in public. What was also heartening was to see young couples in public places without the 'ogling' that was the norm in my time. When SHQ and I were dating, we had no place to go even in a major metro like Delhi where we could even hold hands in public. One day we sat under a tree in a park near Chanakya and very soon a small crowd of people had collected around us! It was frustrating as hell, but is something that is so taken for granted today. I am glad that freedom of thought, speech and action has indeed come a long way in India.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by shravanp » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:33 pm

Vikas wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:14 am
My property in B'lore bought right before NM became PM hasn't appreciated a bit, Infact it is lagging behind the inflation, so yes black money to a large extent has been sucked out of the system.
Heard of some folks who bought properties in Gurgao NCR region 2009-2011, are now having tough time in selling it back. Is that true?

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by chadev » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:47 pm

Every seat this LS is gonna be like presidential elections, where just 2 candidates matters. And with voting on caste, religion lines plus demographics turnout, this mega alliance start with 40% plus default votes. So how BJP gonna reach the near 50% vote share per seat necessary to win the seat?

Worst fear is might just be like Delhi 2015, so a 40% BJP vote shares will just win few number of seats. Thus, I guess more celebs as BJP candidates just to beat the caste lines.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Sachin » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:58 pm

chetak wrote:this rabid minority snake, in his desperate hunt for a parliamentary seat has finally taken this step.
Primus wrote:In politics all is fair. Granted this guy is a viper, but one never knows. Sometimes it may help the overall cause, as with Himanta Da, who of course was never as vile a critic of the BJP as this snake might have been.
SSundar wrote:He can be fielded in a Christian-heavy Kerala constituency which BJP was not going to win anyway. If he wins, that is a bonus. If he loses, that is a bigger bonus. Mean-e-while, he can broadcast a "BJP is not communal" message everywhere.
Tom Vadakkan - even though from Thrissur, Kerala - really do not have any great fan following in Kerala. Even the Congress party workers do not feel any thing good for him. His advantage was his English speaking skills (with a Karan Thappar like accent ;) ) and he was an X'ian who was also said to be close to Sonia Maino. He had to tried to create a small Congress faction at his home town, but this died out soon. As far for Congress in Kerala, Tom Vadakkan jumping ship is good riddance.

For BJP I feel they get a major PoW for "propaganda war" in their own strong holds. Congress spokesperson himself is now with the BJP. But BJP should realise (or have realised) that these folks are all party hoppers with only short term allegiance in mind.
Haldiram wrote:Only Shatrughan Sinha is still in the party.
That too only because of of him being utter shameless and BJP not finding it worth to throw him out by themselves, so that he gets a martyr tag. This fellow should remain in Bollywood where shamelessness is the key.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by crams » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:08 pm

Is it only me but have forumites here followed SM on the field day ModiJi haters are having at what Chincom bastards did to India with Masood Azhar actions. I mean the mockery of ModiJi, mocking surgical strikes, sarcastically asking for surgical strikes against China etc. I mean these f!king traitors are so thrilled that China is screwing India, all because they hate ModiJi with passion. I am just curious, but do the so called 'liberals' in USA hate Trump with such passion? Or anywhere else in the world.

RudraJi/PrimusJi, sorry been busy with travel etc and couldn't respond, but reason I maintain that operation Balakot was at best a partial success is not because of what white media is reporting or not reporting, but because I do not sense that TSP has been hit hard enough. Indeed India finally took some action after years of bogus 'strategic restraint', basically a euphemism for cowardice, but I am not sure this one action alone will deter TSP. Also, in sum total: military/diplomatic terms, I think its equal equal at the moment. TSP for sure has survived to fight another day. TSPA has not yet come to the realization that terror as an instrument of state policy is expensive for them. Note, not unexpected and puke worthy, but TSP is claiming this is their finest hour since nuke tests

https://twitter.com/JammuKashmirNow/sta ... 3647127552

I will begin to sense that India has scored a victory if FATF puts TSP on the black list. That would be a major victory for India. Lets see.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Rudradev » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:35 pm

crams wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:08 pm


RudraJi/PrimusJi, sorry been busy with travel etc and couldn't respond, but reason I maintain that operation Balakot was at best a partial success is not because of what white media is reporting or not reporting, but because I do not sense that TSP has been hit hard enough. Indeed India finally took some action after years of bogus 'strategic restraint', basically a euphemism for cowardice, but I am not sure this one action alone will deter TSP. Also, in sum total: military/diplomatic terms, I think its equal equal at the moment. TSP for sure has survived to fight another day. TSPA has not yet come to the realization that terror as an instrument of state policy is expensive for them. Note, not unexpected and puke worthy, but TSP is claiming this is their finest hour since nuke tests

https://twitter.com/JammuKashmirNow/sta ... 3647127552

CRamS ji,

Was the objective of Balakot to completely obliterate TSP's capacity to ever fight another day? Because that is the yardstick by which you are apparently measuring whether it was a partial or complete success. I don't think that was the objective as the planners of the strike framed it.

If you rely solely on what you consume in sections of the mainstream media, everything appears "equal equal" at the moment. I suggest you look beyond these media at what has actually happened.

Pakistan closed its airspace for 10 days to nearly all commercial traffic, losing vast sums of revenue, while India carried on with business as usual. Maritime traffic to Pakistan's ports nearly vanished as well, with obvious results. No foreign government exerted any significant pressure, economic or diplomatic, on India for "restraint"; meanwhile, many governments added insult to injury for Pakistan by asking it to rein in terrorism even after the Balakot jhaapad. The support received by the motion to blacklist Masood Azhar at the UNSC was unprecedented, with only China standing in opposition.

This means we've completely altered the international dynamic with one strike. It is universally accepted by world governments that India carried out a strike against a terrorist camp outside its borders and was entirely within its rights to do so (EVEN China did not condemn Balakot). Going forward, the international community places absolutely no restrictions on India visiting another strike on Pakistan whenever another major terrorist attack occurs.

Now what's happening inside Pakistan is a story that has yet to play out. Upwards of 200 JeM terrorists were roasted in what was supposed to be their safest of safe-houses, a fortress and training HQ deep inside Pakistan. TSPA, TSPAF could not protect them. Heads are going to roll. Whose? Imran's? Bajwa's? Will the jihadi tanzeems offer the same degree of trust and cooperation to the TSPA/ISI now as they did before Balakot? Or will they take matters into their own hands with regard to Pakistan's internal political dispensation? Whatever happens will be to the detriment of Pakistan in one way or another. None of this is ever going to be covered by the Washington Post, or for that matter the Times of India, as a direct result of the Balakot strike. (For the moment, I'm not even going into secondary knock-on effects of the strike, such as diminishing investor confidence in CPEC or boosting separatist movements within Pakistan).

Meanwhile, the TSPAF have lost the pride of their fleet, an F-16D, to the oldest and most outdated of Indian fighters, a Mig 21. They launched a 24 aircraft strike package against the LOC and couldn't even cross, let alone get within striking distance of their intended target (Rajouri HQ). Why would you believe that this is a military equal-equal to an IAF strike package going 80kms within Pakistan proper and eliminating a terrorist HQ without a single loss? I can assure you the TSPA/TSPAF isn't labouring under any such delusion.

The only reason you could possibly believe the outcome is "equal-equal" is because you've bought into the brave face that the Pakis are trying to put up. They tweet pictures of felled trees and a captured Indian pilot. They pay "digital forensics analysts" (time-pass kids in Australia and Canada using Google Earth and Photoshop on a laptop) to write reports that the Indian airstrike did not hit the intended target. On inspection, these reports turn out to be based on wildly incorrect coordinates and/or outdated satellite pictures.

Then the equal-equalizing media outlets you choose to consume repeat the Pakistani propaganda output beneath a facade of "balanced reporting". And you, my friend, buy it hook line and sinker.

CRamS ji, you are indeed a Christ-like figure. You suffer for the sins of the Western Media and DDM by watching their stuff and experiencing high BP, so that the rest of us don't have to :mrgreen:

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by sanju » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:49 pm

Rudradev wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:35 pm

<snip>

CRamS ji, you are indeed a Christ-like figure. You suffer for the sins of the Western Media and DDM by watching their stuff and experiencing high BP, so that the rest of us don't have to :mrgreen:
:lol:

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by sanju » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:31 am

Twitterverse says that what AP is to Paki funding for Mainomata, so is TV to Vat. funding. Apparently its a huge coup.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:07 am

CSR Ji, I do feel your pain, for I am as much a jingo as you or anyone else here. But I've learnt to filter things out. For example, I do watch the pretty much garbage 'debates' on Indian TV because they are a time-pass and provide a cheap thrill, much like Morton Downey Jr with his red socks did so many years ago on American television. It has become 'Trash TV' and nothing else, there is very little to take home from any of these shows. The same for the Twitter stuff and any WA forwards you and I receive. None of these really reflect the opinion of the majority of the voters in India. They do not even come close to reality either. So take them at very nebulous face value if at all. I do and thus sleep better at night.

RD Ji has put it way more eloquently, in his usual style than I ever could. For me, the big moment of truth was the WingCo's release that night. Oh what a treat that was. I happened to be in India at the time and was having a quiet drink with the family including an Uncle who is passionately anti-Modi. However, when the TV showed the proud warrior crossing into the motherland, this Uncle of mine reached for the bottle - he had put it away as he had 'finished' his quota for the day - and said, we must drink to this momentous occasion. So we all drank a toast to Abhi and to India and it brought tears to our eyes. That is the power of the nation today. A far cry from the Kargil days when the bastards could do a Saurabh Kalia or an Ajay Ahuja to our people and get away with it. Pakistan returned our man because they were shit scared of the consequences. It is also a testament to the fact that no matter how much some people may dislike Modi, in their hearts they are deeply patriotic in their own way. Of course this does not apply to all the politicians in the opposition, we know that, sadly.

That is the take away message I got from my trip to India two weeks ago, in the thick of things. Ye naya Bharat hai.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Sachin » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:58 am

sanju wrote:Twitterverse says that what AP is to Paki funding for Mainomata, so is TV to Vat. funding. Apparently its a huge coup.
We really needs to see what BJP plans to do with Tom Vadakkan. But one thing for sure he was a non-entity in politics even as recent as 2005. And he was never even heard of in the Congress circles in Kerala. He was a rank outsider to even the Congress leaders (who lead multiple power groups) of KL. Even when he made his appearance on TV for the first time there were stories that he was one of the "Amul Babies" who Ra.Ga parachuted into politics. So looks like it was mainly his religion which got him where he was in INC.
Primus wrote:So we all drank a toast to Abhi and to India and it brought tears to our eyes. That is the power of the nation today. A far cry from the Kargil days when the bastards could do a Saurabh Kalia or an Ajay Ahuja to our people and get away with it
Any nation who have survived bigger calamities and wars have only stood high because of the people of that nation who were self confident and proud of their culture and belief systems. May be it was only after the IT Boom that a lot of other employment avenues opened up ad youth started getting into new careers, new life style etc. Their own previous generation (parents & uncles etc.) all would have been living in the "socialistic" Mai-Baap sarkaar which the Congress was famous for. The brainwashing of the people was left to useless communists like H.K.S Surjit, Yechuri etc. Even today the education system etc. would be producing dhimmified youth who have no self pride. So they have to be nurtured using ways outside the education system. My observation is that the youth of rural India is more proud of the country than the urban yuppies.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Muns » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:37 am

Guys, really unfortunate set of circumstances with regard to this New Zealand mosque shooting. Out of the 49 it seems that nine Indians have lost their lives at least for now. Pretty much 20% of the victims. For the first time in my life I am seeing myself agreeing with Owaisi, i.e. his asking that Sushmaji do what she can to facilitate visas for family members who want to travel to New Zealand. An unfortunate set of circumstances and as always when attacks like these take place as unfortunate as they are, it really brings thoughts and questions as to what Indians and some of us have tried to achieve as a whole.

I guess I'm just going to spell out my thoughts here. However, reading through the years of BR and then later Sita Ram Goel, one cannot but help understand the struggle that we as a nation have had to fight against Islamic extremism over the millennia. Every day, I get reports from from social media and our personnel regarding violent attacks on Hindus and BJP workers especially in Kerala as well as West Bengal. Our forces are facing continual attacks because of this ideology from Pakistan and Bangladesh. India itself has tried its very best to highlight the pain that we've suffered over the last few decades with regard to Islamism on the world fora.

All it takes is one white extremist dumb *&^%$^&^ it seems to reset to the whole clock. I myself keep thinking about the Indians that have died in this attack only trying to further their own livelihood and to make a better life for themselves by emigrating. In some sense I can see myself in their shoes. Perhaps this is the idea of vasudeva kutambhikam that is really instilled in all of us. Is it really just all of us? I wonder or just us Hindus that were raised to believe in this equality of all religions? As Africans we call it Ubuntu ( swahili)...or maybe to some extent (botha...respect for that person)
However, where is the respect in Shirk? Tawhid? Riddah? etc. Perhaps now is not really the time. It is time to reflect, but my mind keeps coming back to what it means for Indian society as a whole and what we have tried to achieve with regard to our neighbors.

I guess let's do whatever we can to help our Indian brothers in need even in New Zealand, and fight the battles that yet have need to be fought.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Chandragupta » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:43 am

Sir, Hindus have no dog in this fight. This is the fight between Abrahamics, let them finish each other off, no need to drop tears over their dead bodies. Do you think those people in the mosque or the maniac who killed them care about Hindus dying? I suspect even the Muslim Indians there would be sympathetic to their fellow Indians who are Hindus.

This is will happen with more regularity now in Europe & US. The White-Christian race can either put up a fight or they can roll over & die handing over their native lands to the rampaging Muslims. They may chose to fight and it is not going to be pretty when both sides fight their battles on the streets of London, Paris, Brussels etc..

Long term objective of dharmics in India should be to do massive ghar wapsi. Or in another 100 years, we are looking at our own civil war.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by chetak » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:53 am

sanju wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:31 am
Twitterverse says that what AP is to Paki funding for Mainomata, so is TV to Vat. funding. Apparently its a huge coup.
english translation, please :)

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by Sachin » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:38 am

Muns wrote: For the first time in my life I am seeing myself agreeing with Owaisi, i.e. his asking that Sushmaji do what she can to facilitate visas for family members who want to travel to New Zealand
Sorry if I may sound rude. This was a fight between RoL and RoP, in which RoP took the casualities. Generally world wide, reverse is the trend. Sushma Swaraj perhaps can ensure/help in bringing back the dead bodies of the victims to India in a quicker fashion. Don't know why Owaisi wants a whole group of people to be taken to NZ on expedited VISAs etc. RoP folks have no qualms when people from other religion are butchered in a far more barbaric way. Where was this Owaisi when Pulwama attack happened?
I myself keep thinking about the Indians that have died in this attack only trying to further their own livelihood and to make a better life for themselves by emigrating. In some sense I can see myself in their shoes.
How many cases have you noticed where whites have entered Temples or Gurudwaras and committed massacres like these? Indian Hindus & Sikhs etc. have emigrated to pretty much every part of the world. And they have well amalgamated to the local socities & cultures.
Chandragupta wrote:Do you think those people in the mosque or the maniac who killed them care about Hindus dying? I suspect even the Muslim Indians there would be sympathetic to their fellow Indians who are Hindus.

This is will happen with more regularity now in Europe & US. The White-Christian race can either put up a fight or they can roll over & die handing over their native lands to the rampaging Muslims.
+1 my friend. The whole Indian media is now crying about this incident. If this was an RoP attack on a church they would have all kept quiet or would have given sermons on maintaining peace etc. This is one of the rare occassions where the usual perpetrators got a doze of their own medicine. And the cry of victim hood has started already. I think the "genteel" white localities like Britain, Germany etc. have already started rolling over. Folks like Australia & NZ have a different type of white crowd (remember these were all penal colonies). They may be from that class of old Britain who are not averse to picking up a fight (rather than wear white & white and play a game of cricket - gentleman's game and all that nonsense).

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by srikumar » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:02 pm

Sachin wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:38 am
I myself keep thinking about the Indians that have died in this attack only trying to further their own livelihood and to make a better life for themselves by emigrating. In some sense I can see myself in their shoes.
How many cases have you noticed where whites have entered Temples or Gurudwaras and committed massacres like these? Indian Hindus & Sikhs etc. have emigrated to pretty much every part of the world. And they have well amalgamated to the local socities & cultures.
This is a bit of a self-goal. There was an attack on a Sikh gurdwara 1-2 years ago in US (Wisconsin). Does this make the Sikh community in Wisconsin insular? Dont rely on crazy shooters for a character certificate on how well integrated a community is. Shooters suddenly attacking innocent people have their own reason(s) which are difficult to ascertain (No one knows why one white Amercian shooter shot dead 50+ white/black/everyone in Las Vegas 1-2 years ago).
The whole Indian media is now crying about this incident. If this was an RoP attack on a church they would have all kept quiet or would have given sermons on maintaining peace etc. This is one of the rare occassions where the usual perpetrators got a doze of their own medicine. And the cry of victim hood has started already. I think the "genteel" white localities like Britain, Germany etc. have already started rolling over. Folks like Australia & NZ have a different type of white crowd (remember these were all penal colonies). They may be from that class of old Britain who are not averse to picking up a fight (rather than wear white & white and play a game of cricket - gentleman's game and all that nonsense).
The only thing I want to say is that the highly-civilized, white-wearing, cricket-playing gentleman of Britain were the people who colonized large parts of India, looted large amounts of wealth, killed natives at random, and many times in a systematic manner on a much larger scale than the 'penal colony descendents. Jalianwala Bagh gets all the press but the bigger one was the systemic starving of Bengalis, for example, (in 1942-43). Millions died. The 'civilized' Brits look very noble and polished while they did their killing.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by sanju » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:42 am

chetak wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:53 am
sanju wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:31 am
Twitterverse says that what AP is to Paki funding for Mainomata, so is TV to Vat. funding. Apparently its a huge coup.
english translation, please :)
Ayyoo Chetak saar,
AP = A. Patel
TV = T. Vadakkan
Vat. = Vatican

Although, my inclination is towards TV being a vestigial organ.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by chetak » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:15 am

sanju wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:42 am
chetak wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:53 am
sanju wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:31 am
Twitterverse says that what AP is to Paki funding for Mainomata, so is TV to Vat. funding. Apparently its a huge coup.
english translation, please :)
Ayyoo Chetak saar,
AP = A. Patel
TV = T. Vadakkan
Vat. = Vatican

Although, my inclination is towards TV being a vestigial organ.
Very true. Thanks

chetak
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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by chetak » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:17 am

An earlier article.


INSIDE STORY OF INDIA'S STRIKE INSIDE PAKISTAN

INSIDE STORY OF INDIA'S STRIKE INSIDE PAKISTAN

By R. Prasannan, Namrata Biji Ahuja And Pradip R. Sagar

It was a coincidence, but a propitious one. Two days after a suicide bomber had driven his explosive-laden Maruti Eeco into a trooper convoy at Pulwama, killing 40 CRPF constables and escorts, the Indian Air Force had its scheduled annual firepower demonstration, Vayu Shakti, on February 16. There, in the Pokhran range where the exercise takes place every spring, several Mirages, MiG-27s and Jaguars emptied their precision bombs and ground-strike munitions in front of hundreds of news cameras, secret recoding devices and even satellite eyes of the big powers. Not more than five men on the grandstand of the VIPs knew that a few of the aircraft were actually rehearsing the strikes that they would deliver in real enemy territory exactly a week later.

A day before the exercise, Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa had driven up the Raisina Hill from his Vayu Bhawan office and given a presentation to Prime Minister Narendra Modi, National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and some of their closest security aides. There he had reiterated what several other chiefs before him had told their prime ministers—that the IAF had the capability to deliver precision strikes on terror camps in Pakistan as also occupied Kashmir.

But there was a difference this time. On earlier occasions when air strikes had been thought of, the targets had been close to the Line of Control, mostly in occupied Kashmir. This time, however, an overcautious Pakistan had emptied out all the terror training camps and launchpads near the LoC, and moved them into the sovereign territory of Pakistan. Hitting those could provoke the enemy into retaliating in kind, Dhanoa is said to have warned. Would the political leadership be willing to risk an escalation?

_Plan of action: Prime Minister Modi addresses a Cabinet Committee on Security meeting on February 26_

It was that risk that had held back several governments earlier from hitting the truant neighbor with military force—after the attack on Parliament, after the attack in Mumbai, after the attacks in Pathankot, Uri and several other places. But this time, the mood had changed.

All the same, as the chief was about to leave, the prime minister is said to have added a clause of caution—strike at the terror camp, but ensure that there will be no collateral damage on any military installation or civilian life and property.
As the senior air staff at Vayu Bhawan scrambled to assess the situation, they found that it would be no easy task. For Pakistan is a country dotted with military installations, and most terror training camps were close to, or even attached to military stations. The strikes would have to be pin-precise.

Meanwhile, the chiefs and their staff officers had received inputs from the R&AW and IB, whose heads Anil Dhasmana and Rajiv Jain were also present at the meeting. One target that would yield politico-military dividend was the Bahawalpur headquarters of Masood Azhar, the head of the Jaish-e-Mohammad that had perpetrated the Pulwama and several other attacks on India.

_High alert: Prime Minister Imran Khan addresses a meeting of Pakistan’s National Security Committee_

But Bahawalpur was soon ruled out for several reasons, the foremost being that it was well-guarded by the Pakistani army and air defence. Moreover, the clutter of talk from India about Bahawalpur had made Pakistan virtually “over-guard” their precious asset. Meanwhile, the National Technical Research Organisation had supplied satellite pictures and data about 30 terror-training locations, including the ones at Jalalabad, Balakot, Khalid bin Wahid, Jungal Mangal, Abbottabad and Tarbela, all of which were reporting heightened activity, perhaps due to the arrival of the trainers and recruits from the camps in PoK. “Such missions are the result of great coordination among all the agencies,” pointed out Alok Joshi, former NTRO chief who was part of the planning for the 2016 surgical strikes.

The choice was soon made—the strike would be on the Syed Ahmed Shaheed training camp in Balakot, not the Balakot in Poonch near the line of control, but the little town of Balakot in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa on the sovereign territory of Pakistan. The outskirts of the town had hosted one of the oldest terror training camps of Pakistan which, some say, dated back to the days when President Zia-ul-Haq arranged training for the Afghan mujahideen to wage war against the Soviet military in the 1980s. The facility had since been given over to Hizbul Mujahideen and in recent years to Jaish-e-Mohammad. “There are several such terror camps inside Pakistan and these details have been shared with the Pakistan government time and again,” former home secretary G.K. Pillai told THE WEEK. “However, no action has been taken to dismantle the terror infrastructure on its soil. Balakot is one such facility that has been used by multiple terror organisations.”

The hilltop facility by the Kunhar river offered a sprawling campus, where recruits were imparted the advanced Daura-e-Khaas training in weapons, explosives and field tactics, tactics for attacking security convoys, planting and making improvised explosive devices, preparations for suicide bombing, rigging vehicles for suicide attacks and survival tactics in high altitude and under extreme stress. Masood had been known to visit the place to give inspirational lectures, and he had entrusted the administration of the camp to his brother-in-law Yusuf Azhar, alias Ustad Ghauri, who is suspected to have masterminded the Pulwama attack. “Balakot was used for battle inoculation,” said the intelligence dossiers presented to the prime minister.

The snoops also had copies of dossiers kept by the Pakistan Punjab government on 42 Jaish-e-Mohammad instructors, all of who had trained, and some of whom were training fresh recruits at Balakot, complete with their phone numbers, names of parents, and home addresses in Bahawalpur, Multan, Rawalpindi, Faisalabad, Attock, Sahiwal, Muzaffarabad, Rajanpur and Mianwali. They also told the prime minister that Masood Azhar himself had been at the Balakot facility on February 5, which was Kashmir Solidarity Day. His earlier visit had been in October when he had offered a prayer for acceptance of the “martyrdom” of his 18-year-old nephew Usman (son of his elder brother Ibrahim Azhar), who had been gunned down by security forces in Tral in Kashmir. Azhar had urged Kashmiris to follow in the footsteps of Usman. Adil Ahmad Dar, the Pulwama fidayeen bomber, is said to have been inspired by that speech, which was circulated on social media. And Yusuf Azhar, who had been trained at Balakot, was training more youngsters there. All this made Balakot the perfect target.

_Lethal weapons: a train loaded with army trucks and artillery guns parked at a railway station on the outskirts of jammu | Reuters_

Balakot was finally zeroed in on, but the prime minister still had a word of caution—no collateral damage to civilian or military lives or assets, please.

Thus, it was with the weight of the Balakot mission in mind that Dhanoa flew to Pohkran the next day. When media men quizzed him there, he would only say that the IAF was ever prepared to deliver “appropriate response” as assigned by India’s political leadership. Two days later, on February 18, Dhanoa was again summoned to the prime minister’s office, where he received the final go-ahead. The same evening, Dhanoa’s office called the No 7 squadron in Gwalior, and assigned it the task.

By then, the IAF had done the complete operational planning with Air Marshal Hari Kumar, chief of the Delhi-based Western Command, and Air Marshal Rajesh Kumar, head of the Allahabad-based Central Command. ..Loki:Central Command because the Gwalior squadron came under it, and western command because it would have to provide all the support, such as escorts, air defence cover, early warning and even mid-air refuelling from the huge Ilyushin-78 tankers.

But why Mirages, and that too all the way from Gwalior? Why not the equally advanced MiG-29 from Adampur, dedicated ground attack MiG-27 from Bathinda, deep-strike Jaguars from Ambala or the workhorse MiG-Biz from Pathankot or elsewhere? Several factors went into the selection of the strike aircraft, the route of ingress and even the logistics. “For carrying out such operations, first of all is the target selection, which is vital. You must have something to strike because we do not risk so many aircraft, crew and prestige on something which is just a hilltop,” explained retired Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur. “Once you decide on the target, then comes types of aircraft and weapons. Planning like routing, assets, have to go along like AWACS, flight refueller and others.”

Hitting the targets in pakistan could provoke the enemy into retaliating in kind, air marshal B.S. Dhanoa is said to have warned. Hitting the targets in pakistan could provoke the enemy into retaliating in kind, air marshal B.S. Dhanoa is said to have warned.The reasons for choosing the Mirages were several. For one, Mirages were equipped with laser-guiding pods and more modern electronic warfare suits that could jam Pakistani air defences. They have fly-by-wire flight control system which freed the pilot to focus on releasing the weapon; have Sextant VE-130 HUD, which displays data related to flight control, navigation, target engagement, and weapon firing. They also have Thales RDY 2 radar, aiding the pilot to engage any enemy plane from long distance. The pilots are also equipped with display inside their helmet, enabling them to see radar data without looking at the cockpit display. This means a pilot can direct weapons by merely pointing their head instead of manoeuvering the entire jet in the direction of the target. Their SPICE (Smart Precise Impact Cost Effective guidance kit)-2000 kits, mounted on a standard 2000-pound Mk 84 unguided bomb, were the smartest munition to hit soft targets on the ground without inflicting collateral damage.

The other available aircraft were MiG-Biz, MiG-29 and Jaguars. Though recently upgraded, MiG-Biz is essentially a short-range jet, more suited to dogfights with enemy planes than for ground attack. MiG-29s are longer-range and immensely powerful, but more suited in an interceptor role for establishing air superiority. Jaguars are deep-strike jets, but with limited capability for dogfight in case the enemy scrambles. The Mirages, recently upgraded and armed with MICA air-to-air missiles, can engage targets at beyond visual ranges and also at close ranges—one missile for two jobs.

The choice of Gwalior as the launch base was also ideal. For one, Gwalior indeed is the home base of the Mirage squadrons. Secondly, from there they could take off and climb high while in Indian airspace, and then swoop down to treetop level to evade enemy radars as they approached Pakistani airspace. They could strike at the target from stand-off positions, before climbing to higher altitudes to scoot. “This is called hi-lo-lo-hi mode of strike,” said an air officer. “You take off high so as to save fuel and gain speed, ingress into enemy territory low so as to evade enemy radars, strike from low altitude, and then climb up to egress fast. Any squadron from closer to the border would have been picked up by the enemy as soon as they took off. Therefore, the strike had to take off from deep inside India.”
The squadron, No 7, was also battle-hardened. Loki:Known as Battle Axes, they had seen action in Operation Cactus in November 1988 in the Maldives, and then in Kargil where Wing Commander Sandeep Chhabra earned a Yudh Seva Medal and Wing Commander (now marshal and commanding-in-chief of eastern command) R. Nambiar the Vayu Sena Medal.

Squadron 7 had a week to practise. And that whole week the MiGs from the border bases, and even heavy Sukhois from deeper-inland bases, flew up on hundreds of combat air patrol missions near the border and LoC, creating clutters on Pakistani radars.

They did the same in the early hours of February 26, too. Sukhois from Halwara and even deep-inland bases like Bareilly roared around in the western command’s airspace, executing forward sweeps. Behind that air cover, two Ilyushin-78 tanker planes flew up from Agra to air-fuel the Mirages, in case any jet got thirsty mid-air. And two early warning planes from Bathinda roamed around looking deep into Pakistani airspace and giving realtime information to the Mirages about enemy fighter activity.

At 2am on February 26, when the enemy skies were clear during the graveyard shift, 12 of the Mirages, armed with laser-pods, SPICE-2000 and Crystal Maze Mark2 air-to-ground missiles, and fire-and-forget medium-range (90km) Popeye missiles flew up high into the central Indian skies and then swooped down as they approached the Pakistani airspace. There they split into three groups heading north, west and south. “This is done with two purposes,” said an Air Force officer. “One is to avoid presenting a cluster of targets to the enemy, the other is to strike at the enemy from several directions. We call it multi-directional saturation strike. By using the technique of ‘masking by hills’, our fighters were able to beat the Pakistan air defence radars. Two decoys were also used to distract Pakistan air force. A Heron unmanned aerial vehicle was also up in the air for monitoring and assessment of the target.”

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Intelligence reports earlier had said that the camps at Jabba Top in Balakot, Chakothi and on the suburbs of Muzaffarabad housed 200 to 300 JeM cadre, trainers and leaders. ‪From 3.42am‬ the Mirages pounded the three targets—all within a radius of 10km—for nearly eight minutes. The jets fired 12 Spice 2000 precision-guided bombs and two Popeye air-to-ground missiles with the explosive weight over 1,000kg.

The Pakistan air force, taken by surprise, did scramble their F-16s, but by then the Mirages had climbed, disregarding the radars, and raced back. “Pakistan’s lack of strategic depth helped us,” said an officer. “The targets were just about 65km from Indian airspace. The ingress by our strike [fighters] took longer because they took circuitous routs and also flew low to evade enemy radars. But the egress was quick. They flew back straight, and also at high altitude.” By ‪4.30am‬ all the fighters were back in Gwalior after carrying IAF’s first cross-border strike since 1971.

The next morning, as Indian air defence radars, linked to Spyder missile batteries and Akash air defence missiles, scanned the horizons and the border base MiGs patrolled the skies, Indian Foreign Secretary Vijay Gokhale announced to the media: “In an intelligence-led operation in the early hours of Tuesday, India struck the biggest training camp of JeM in Balakot. In this operation, a very large number of JeM terrorists, trainers, senior commanders and groups of jihadis who were being trained for fidayeen action were eliminated. This facility at Balakot was headed by Maulana Yousuf Azhar alias Ustad Ghouri, [who is] the brother-in-law of Masood Azhar.”

Pakistan, however, denied any casualties, and said that its jets had fought off the Indian ones, which had dropped the payload in haste. Bashir Wali, the former head of Pakistan Intelligence Bureau, even denied the presence of any terror camps in Balakot. “It is war hysteria created by India for its elections. I have been to those areas. It has been snowing there. There would be a maximum of five or six houses in the entire area. Indian jets only offloaded the bomb while quickly returning to their Indian base,” he said. “India has started the wrong game and Pakistan will react two times to any provocation.”

And, it did. Soon, the tactical picture began to change. Protesting violently, Pakistan scrambled their air force, which conducted several menacing combat patrols close to the international border and the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir. In what is now suspected a clever trap to lure Indian fighters, a pack of F-16, JF-17 and Mirage-5 streamed across the Line of Control around 10am into the Noushera, Bimbargali and Krishna Ghat sectors of Rajouri and Poonch districts. The Mirage-5 tried to bomb the Indian Army’s 25 Division headquarters, and an ammunition and logistics depot close to the brigade headquarters in Poonch.

The IAF immediately scrambled a combat air patrol from Awantipora base close to Srinagar. Five MiG-Biz chased the four F-16s that turned back, with two MiGs in hot pursuit, but one, flown by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, was hit and downed. Much like the capture of Wing Commander Nachiketa during the Kargil war, he was immediately mobbed, but quickly captured by the Pakistani ground forces.

As the Pakistan military posted videos of Varthaman being quizzed, India was pressing upon Pakistan to treat him by the Geneva Conventions, which demanded that a prisoner of war be not tortured or coerced into revealing more than bare details about himself, his unit and his mission.

The external affairs ministry summoned the Pakistan acting high commissioner in Delhi, and “strongly objected to Pakistan’s vulgar display of an injured personnel of the Indian Air Force in violation of all norms of international humanitarian law”.

India also ruled out Pakistan’s call for a dialogue, and said there would be “no deal” on the pilot’s release.

The following day, on February 28, hours after the US reportedly called for immediate steps towards de-escalation, Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan announced in Parliament that they would release Varthaman as “a gesture of peace”. He said he wanted de-escalation. The question is: Will he get it?

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 3 (Oct 2018 - )

Post by arshyam » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:12 am

Interesting that they mention Wg Cdr Abhinandan's MiG-21 being hit going down (GoI has actually not said why his aircraft went down), but conveniently skip mentioning his taking down an F-16 before that. The Week has to screw up an otherwise good article. I suppose their editors take the moral high ground that GoI's statements on that hit don't amount to proof. Now I have to wonder how much to rely on the rest of the article. With friends like these, why have enemies? Ack thoo only.

On BRF, a bunch of folks have been complaining about GoI's (lack of) information warfare capabilities, but with such 'doubting thomas' media houses, there is only so much the GoI can do to put its word out.

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