The Great Indian Political Drama - 1 (Oct 2017 - Mar 2018)

[Deans]

SSundar ji, I face the same arguments with my relatives. Ignoring the fact that the Xtian community will rarely have anything positive to say about Modiji, the points they make are broadly the same as what you list. My response in brief:

1. Certainly Modi & NDA have to do a better job at PR, so that there is a linkage between what he says and what is delivered. You might like to ask specifically what it is that Modiji has not delivered on. I wonder for e.g. how many critics have ever heard Maan ki baat. I'd also like to hear any opposition leader offer specific solutions on any area they feel the Govt has talked but not delivered.

2. Those who have made high value deposits with no corresponding IT return, under DeMo, have been served notices and the law takes its course
as far as prosecutions are concerned. If the govt tries to circumvent the legal process for prosecuting the legal process, then we become a police
state, which ironically is what critics think we are. People might want to introspect as to why the legal process is so slow, to realise how deep the
rot is.

3. Have you actually met any of those crores of people who lost jobs ? In any case, the point is moot. Those who lost jobs and blame Modi will not
vote for him, so critics should be reassured that he will not win 2019, rather than crib on behalf of people they have no idea about.

4. Most critics and relatives I know, continue to enjoy gas subsidy. They don't know why but blame Modi because others have voluntarly lost it.

5. Great opportunity to make money by buying shares of Reliance and Adani.

6. Go to a few villages or travel by long distance train - neither of which citics I interact with, have done.

7. The govt can fix state run education, not private education. For capitation fees, Medical education has been fixed to a large extent by NEET (and DeMo) - which has shifted capitation fees to dubious colleges in Nepal/China, where people of limited ability who are desperate to be doctors, go.
The larger point is why parents pay high fees for 3rd rate engineering or MBA colleges where the vast majority of graduates are unemployable, or work for salaries that a simple graduate would get.

8. Inflation is lower now than at any time in UPA 1 or 2. What is important is Income net of inflation, which has been going up. More significantly
income growth for the bottom 90% (which lagged the top 1 who earn 33% of income and the next 9% who earn another 33%) is now closer to average, instead of languishing at 1-2% even during 6% GDP growth.

9. Tax rates have reduced for income tax. Even if there was no tax evasion, only about 15% of Adult Urban Indians earn enough to pay tax and most of them pay at the lowest rate which is lower than any G20 country. A negligible no of Indians are taxed at 20% but they whine disproportionately and keep asking for more concessions.

[Chandragupta]

I have realised that all these arguments don't work with most Hindus who are Modi critics. It is easier to talk Hindutva and bring them onboard. I, for example, ask them if they want their grand sons & grand daughters to live in an Islamic India? That works most of the times. If it doesn't work, then the people are already lost and are out of the fold of Hindu dharma. No point debating with them, they have become the enemy.

[Vikas]

What gets my goat is that people who have lived thru dark days of Italian mafia or horrors of Khichadi govts in 90's still are fond of discarding all the efforts by NM govt to improve lives of ordinary Indian.
Do we Indians suffer from this itch of strangulating ourselves every few years or just that we are plain ignorant or is it that we deserve Khilji's ruling us with iron fist from Delhi throwing crumbs at us after his feast. Aren't we sick and tired of Poverty-addiction, Muslim-appeasement, Xtian-influence, Pak-pasand policies of Congress (&Luyten crowd).

I mean, would you still want to bring back Pappu and his goons back into running Bharat despite all that you have seen in last few decades ?
I wonder what exactly the complaining middle class needs ? A tax break of additional 50000 (That would save 16,000 p.a tops), Gas subsidy which would save maybe 1500 bucks p.a.
How was middle class impacted financially by DeNo except for those 2 months when cash was not available. Buggers didn't even had black money in cash to complain about.

PS: I don't ever see islamists or Xtians complain about Congoons and then threaten to replace them by BJP.. Never ever !!

[Primus]

SSundar ji, I face the same arguments with my relatives. Ignoring the fact that the Xtian community will rarely have anything positive to say about Modiji, the points they make are broadly the same as what you list. My response in brief:

1. Certainly Modi & NDA have to do a better job at PR, so that there is a linkage between what he says and what is delivered. You might like to ask specifically what it is that Modiji has not delivered on. I wonder for e.g. how many critics have ever heard Maan ki baat. I'd also like to hear any opposition leader offer specific solutions on any area they feel the Govt has talked but not delivered.

2. Those who have made high value deposits with no corresponding IT return, under DeMo, have been served notices and the law takes its course
as far as prosecutions are concerned. If the govt tries to circumvent the legal process for prosecuting the legal process, then we become a police
state, which ironically is what critics think we are. People might want to introspect as to why the legal process is so slow, to realise how deep the
rot is.

3. Have you actually met any of those crores of people who lost jobs ? In any case, the point is moot. Those who lost jobs and blame Modi will not
vote for him, so critics should be reassured that he will not win 2019, rather than crib on behalf of people they have no idea about.

4. Most critics and relatives I know, continue to enjoy gas subsidy. They don't know why but blame Modi because others have voluntarly lost it.

5. Great opportunity to make money by buying shares of Reliance and Adani.

6. Go to a few villages or travel by long distance train - neither of which citics I interact with, have done.

7. The govt can fix state run education, not private education. For capitation fees, Medical education has been fixed to a large extent by NEET (and DeMo) - which has shifted capitation fees to dubious colleges in Nepal/China, where people of limited ability who are desperate to be doctors, go.
The larger point is why parents pay high fees for 3rd rate engineering or MBA colleges where the vast majority of graduates are unemployable, or work for salaries that a simple graduate would get.

8. Inflation is lower now than at any time in UPA 1 or 2. What is important is Income net of inflation, which has been going up. More significantly
income growth for the bottom 90% (which lagged the top 1 who earn 33% of income and the next 9% who earn another 33%) is now closer to average, instead of languishing at 1-2% even during 6% GDP growth.

9. Tax rates have reduced for income tax. Even if there was no tax evasion, only about 15% of Adult Urban Indians earn enough to pay tax and most of them pay at the lowest rate which is lower than any G20 country. A negligible no of Indians are taxed at 20% but they whine disproportionately and keep asking for more concessions.

Very well put, Deans Ji.

I think the problem many middle-class Indians have is that they think they know a lot, but really don't. They argue from a supposedly rational perspective but usually do not have the facts right and are to a great extent influenced by what the MSM is telling them or what they hear from their 'better informed' friends and family.

The Uber-rich have always had their own particular agenda, based on who is going to benefit them in the long run.

It is only the poor, who, caste-issues aside, usually vote on what they see as real development, like the old woman in that very poignant video who decided to vote for Modi because he changed her life by getting her a gas stove to cook with). They are the ones who really matter. Unfortunately, they are also the most vulnerable to the pressures of caste/religion.

One of the criticisms of the current Modi government could be that it has not developed as robust a PR machinery as the Congoons have had in place for so long. I know, it takes time, but having a powerful IT cell which can then monitor and dispel the various memes put out by the opposition would be extremely useful. They do have one, I am sure, but sometimes it seems that they are not doing enough. Social media however, does seem to have a lot of Modi supporters (if the comments on the YT videos are anything to go by), which may or may not be a reflection of the true feelings of the nation.

[Shakuni]

Dhimmitude in Hindus has set in deeply.

And to those whining, I generally ask them a simple question - Let's assume that Modi is as bad as you say he is. Who is the alternative for you? Kejriwal? Pappu? Yechuri? Or else, astagfirullah, Comrade Mewani or Comrade Umar Khalid?

[sbajwa]

I saw Padmavat over the weekend and would put this movie in the same genre as Bahubali movies. A very realistic (of that times) action movie with aptly showing the brave Rajputs. There were some mistakes like Malik Kafur is shown as a man from somewhere in middle east. Malik Kafur as a child (Hindu) was captured and enslaved from Gujarat in one of the expedition of Nusrat Khan Khilzi.

The movie correctly depicted Alaudeen Khilji as perverted egoistic only wanting to own everything person (They didn't show his Homosexual side which he was).

The movie shows that Rani Padmavati traveled to Delhi to free her husband Rana Ratan singh which is totally wrong. Only Generals Gora and Badal along with 800 soldiers hidden in Palkis as Queen's friends.

I think after taking the scenes and songs out of the movie (Alaudeen Khilji dreaming about Rani Padmavati) it has become good. Rajput should ensure that those scenes/songs are destroyed forever.

[Gus]

if somebody goes on a whine list, it is better to set the terms before you start addressing. stick to one specific issue and go claim by claim and counter with facts and one by one, you can deconstruct and demolish that narrative.

you will basically need to get the other person come to the same conclusion without you telling it.

one dude on my group started the "15 lakh" argument. I agreed with him and asked him to first show me the video to tell others , and after he did, then asked him to translate the piece ..and then it turns out his original claim that "modi promised to put 15 lakh" is not exactly what modi said in the rally.

he tried to use other arguments like "well that seems like he was making a promise" blah blah..and I responded with this

"so when a report says every indian carries X amount of rupees on their head from india's loans" does it mean that everybody have to send that money to govt? " - and that settled that "debate". he never brought that up again.

[Trilobite]

I saw Padmavat over the weekend and would put this movie in the same genre as Bahubali movies. A very realistic (of that times) action movie with aptly showing the brave Rajputs. There were some mistakes like Malik Kafur is shown as a man from somewhere in middle east. Malik Kafur as a child (Hindu) was captured and enslaved from Gujarat in one of the expedition of Nusrat Khan Khilzi.

The movie correctly depicted Alaudeen Khilji as perverted egoistic only wanting to own everything person (They didn't show his Homosexual side which he was).

The movie shows that Rani Padmavati traveled to Delhi to free her husband Rana Ratan singh which is totally wrong. Only Generals Gora and Badal along with 800 soldiers hidden in Palkis as Queen's friends.

I think after taking the scenes and songs out of the movie (Alaudeen Khilji dreaming about Rani Padmavati) it has become good. Rajput should ensure that those scenes/songs are destroyed forever.

The whole dream sequence thing was rumor spread using social media. Bhansali denied existence of any such sequence right from the beginning.

Also Padmavat is not entirely facts or fiction, it is mixture of both. For example there is no historical evidence of any queen Padmavati! In Jayasi poetry Padmawat is a princess in Sri Lanka whose parrot Hiraman flies all the way to Chittorgarh to tell ruler Ratansen about her beauty! So Ratansen travels to Sri Lanka to marry and bring her back to Chittorgarh!

This entire drama about Padmavati was not about Padmavati, it was about politics. Our political parties consider it fit to use deception and deceit to fool the masses in order to garner votes. I hope people have been able to see through this charade in this case. Such tactics will have increasing diminishing returns.

[chetak]

I saw Padmavat over the weekend and would put this movie in the same genre as Bahubali movies. A very realistic (of that times) action movie with aptly showing the brave Rajputs. There were some mistakes like Malik Kafur is shown as a man from somewhere in middle east. Malik Kafur as a child (Hindu) was captured and enslaved from Gujarat in one of the expedition of Nusrat Khan Khilzi.

The movie correctly depicted Alaudeen Khilji as perverted egoistic only wanting to own everything person (They didn't show his Homosexual side which he was).

The movie shows that Rani Padmavati traveled to Delhi to free her husband Rana Ratan singh which is totally wrong. Only Generals Gora and Badal along with 800 soldiers hidden in Palkis as Queen's friends.

I think after taking the scenes and songs out of the movie (Alaudeen Khilji dreaming about Rani Padmavati) it has become good. Rajput should ensure that those scenes/songs are destroyed forever.

The whole dream sequence thing was rumor spread using social media. Bhansali denied existence of any such sequence right from the beginning.

Also Padmavat is not entirely facts or fiction, it is mixture of both. For example there is no historical evidence of any queen Padmavati! In Jayasi poetry Padmawat is a princess in Sri Lanka whose parrot Hiraman flies all the way to Chittorgarh to tell ruler Ratansen about her beauty! So Ratansen travels to Sri Lanka to marry and bring her back to Chittorgarh!

This entire drama about Padmavati was not about Padmavati, it was about politics. Our political parties consider it fit to use deception and deceit to fool the masses in order to garner votes. I hope people have been able to see through this charade in this case. Such tactics will have increasing diminishing returns.

this film is making very good money.

i would not put it past the slimy producer/director to have spread the "dream sequence" rumor in the first place, while publicly denying it all the while.

that dolt leading the karni sena seems to be an ex army type with very greedy political ambitions.

[shravanp]

Dhimmitude in Hindus has set in deeply.

And to those whining, I generally ask them a simple question - Let's assume that Modi is as bad as you say he is. Who is the alternative for you? Kejriwal? Pappu? Yechuri? Or else, astagfirullah, Comrade Mewani or Comrade Umar Khalid?

Even hilarious is the fact that there are some RWingers who demand that another RW-party alternative to BJP should be created. BJP just barely got to power 3 years ago, hasn't created a suitable ecosystem and here those guys want another RW party. BJP needs to rule at least another 2 consecutive terms, bring in some rot, and only than another alternative will come up. Till then, there's enough rot piled up by Congoons and their assorted chamchas to feed on. Hopefully BJP gets another round of absolute majority in LS and also in RS.

[KL Dubey]

It is only the poor, who, caste-issues aside, usually vote on what they see as real development, like the old woman in that very poignant video who decided to vote for Modi because he changed her life by getting her a gas stove to cook with). They are the ones who really matter. Unfortunately, they are also the most vulnerable to the pressures of caste/religion.

Yes, these are the voters who are going to help win the election. I would think/hope most of the "poor" and the "lower-middle-class" will be solidly with Modi. Of course, it is hard to consolidate them into a single group for discussion since there are so many subgroups, microgroups, castes etc.

I sympathize with some of the points raised by the posters "SSundar", "Deans" etc regarding the "upper middle class" factor.

However, recent electoral performance doesn't back it up. In Gujarat, these folks seem to have voted for Modi despite expectations to the contrary and the party's vote share is touching 50%.

As it turned out, the BJP's post-election analysis indicated lack of seat conversion in the coastal constituencies because of some obscure policy of the state goremint (something about banning diesel fishing boats?? I don't recall). Alternatively Dr. Braveen Badil's hybothesis is that women did not show up in enough numbers (though there wasn't data on which kind of women - women in general or from certain groups).

PS: here is vote analysis by Gujarat region (see the last graphic in the TOI article). BJP maintained its seat wins (relative to 2012) in all pretty much all areas of the state except the Saurashtra-Kutch region. Is this a heavily urbanized region ? I am not sure - perhaps it is the least urbanized region of the state.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 126976.cms

[Indrad]

any one living in UP? What is happening in Kasganj?
Apparently the person declared dead is alive
https://www.livehindustan.com/uttar-pra ... 74161.html

leftist channels are trying to spin Kasganj saying that peacefuls were trying to chant Vande Matram and Bharat Mata ki Jai were assaulted by RWs

[Gus]

sampling and predicting is hard in india based on chatter because the chattering class don't vote.

as a group of people, they might even have genuine grievances, but it is lost in the whinefest and unrealistic expectations and "missing the forest for the trees" type impatient myopia.

[SSundar]

Dhimmitude in Hindus has set in deeply.

And to those whining, I generally ask them a simple question - Let's assume that Modi is as bad as you say he is. Who is the alternative for you? Kejriwal? Pappu? Yechuri? Or else, astagfirullah, Comrade Mewani or Comrade Umar Khalid?

Ever got an answer for that one? I never have

[SSundar]

AFAIK, that dream scene was real. The original Karni Sena protests started because they allegedly saw that dream scene being filmed on location and objected to it. Bansali refused and they slapped him. This is where reports of the dream scene emerged... from a live audience. I doubt this is a rumor.

One thing we should not rule out is that GoI and others prevailed on censor board to discard anything that would have been truly offensive to the Rajputs. This would have taken the wind out of any political sails within Karni Sena. Explains why they turned on BJP and joined hands with Congis.

To say Padmavati is purely fictional means you must be willing to admit that Ram, Jesus, The Prophet, etc. all have the exact same amount of proof of their existence... one book and some archeological indicators.

[Supratik]

There was another mistake in Padmavaat. The Rajput when faced with certain defeat would commit Saka where the men would take off their armor and rush to the battlefield to fight till death while the women committed jauhar. Bhansali did not show that in the movie. Although clearly there is a lot of fiction most historians including leftists agree that the battle and jauhar did happen.

[sbajwa]

by SSundar
AFAIK, that dream scene was real. The original Karni Sena protests started because they allegedly saw that dream scene being filmed on location and objected to it. Bansali refused and they slapped him. This is where reports of the dream scene emerged... from a live audience. I doubt this is a rumor.

In that case the vigilantism by Karni Sena needs to be applauded. I wish we have such vigilant forces that screen each and every movie of BIFs and correct them.

This movie (Padmavat) is very realistic unlike Bahubali (super human) and war scenes (CGI) are good. Dialogues and depicting the Dharmic side of Rajput is also a known thing (Rana Ratan Singh refusing to strike the unarmed Khilji, when Khilji asked that he is visiting him as a guest why don't he kills him as he has besieged his town Ratan Singh replies that we treat Guests as God, even at last when fighting one to one it is shown that Khilji is down and Ratan Singh is running to behead Khilji Malik Kafur orders his soldiers to fire arrows at Rana Ratan singh thus saving Khilji by deceit.

I would call it a Dharmic movie aptly showing. not sure why Bhansali would do such a thing (Dream sequence) unless Bhai's from Bakistan wanted such!

[Indrad]

bad news is I am getting go go gaga over Padmavat from all direction, leftist friends told me how great Khilji was and he kept artisans, architect, amir khusro in durbar. built important structures...
young girls are 180 degree sashtang for ranveer..his marauding side is apparently not shown#=
nor how he sacked somnath temple, killed 20000 in Gujrat and took slaves in thousands..
he threw somnath statue under mosque in delhi to be trampled by muslims daily..
khilji is a hero now..

[Trilobite]

AFAIK, that dream scene was real. The original Karni Sena protests started because they allegedly saw that dream scene being filmed on location and objected to it. Bansali refused and they slapped him. This is where reports of the dream scene emerged... from a live audience. I doubt this is a rumor.

Your recollection of the incidence does not seem to be accurate. The shooting was inside a fort not in a public area and and it is reasonable to assume that when shooting are held in a private space, access is not open.

If you read the reports of the incidence ( just Google it) the Karni Sena simply barged in and vandalized the sets, broke up equipments, and beat up Bhansali on the pretext that Rajput history was being distorted.

Bhansali is who made the film so if he denies it then either one can believe Bhansali or one can believe anything one wants to believe in including existence of unicorn!

[Trilobite]

In that case the vigilantism by Karni Sena needs to be applauded. I wish we have such vigilant forces that screen each and every movie of BIFs and correct them.

Supporting vigilantism by caste groups is a bad idea. India has over 5000+ caste groups, just imagine the level of chaos it will cause if all these 5000+ caste senas indulge in vigilantism on the pretext of slight to their communities!

Vigilantism should have no place in a democracy whatsoever.

[sbajwa]

Karni Sena supports the cause of Rajputs and Rajputs (Kshtriyas) are a very big group in India.

[SSundar]

Your recollection of the incidence does not seem to be accurate. The shooting was inside a fort not in a public area and and it is reasonable to assume that when shooting are held in a private space, access is not open.

My recollection is based on a Bansali interview reported by Rediff at the time. He was clear that the shooting was in a fort with a public crowd watching it. The article also was clear that he was slapped I am no longer able to find it. But my memory is in fairly good shape. We'll leave it at that.

Google search now of course puts articles on top which deny that there was ever a dream sequence. So we will have to take it for what it is worth.

If your statements are true, then this means we are dealing with an organization that had ground Intel about a movie being made in private venues, saw a political opportunity in it, organized itself to put forth a story of a dream scene, has been funded to sustain a campaign for several months against the might of Bollywood and media, formed a war plan that involved forcing BJP CMs to ban the movie failing which organizing street protests to burn the same states whose CMs supported them in the first place and basically burned bridges with ALL Hindus who stood in their support.

That by deduction tells us that a force far more conniving and sinister than BJP/RSS have ever proven themselves to be is behind this whole exercise. Unlike known Congi campaigns of the past, this force has so far been successful in hiding its identity and involvement. That scares me.

[Primus]

bad news is I am getting go go gaga over Padmavat from all direction, leftist friends told me how great Khilji was and he kept artisans, architect, amir khusro in durbar. built important structures...
young girls are 180 degree sashtang for ranveer..his marauding side is apparently not shown#=
nor how he sacked somnath temple, killed 20000 in Gujrat and took slaves in thousands..
he threw somnath statue under mosque in delhi to be trampled by muslims daily..
khilji is a hero now..

And that, precisely is the problem with the movie. Anyone remember Sholay and Amjad Khan? He became a cult figure after that although he was a cruel villain in the movie, simply because of how his character was portrayed, so much unlike the original Henry Fonda in 'Once Upon A Time in The West' from which the entire story and many scenes were lifted.

A clever director and script writer can make a hero out of a cruel sadist and an effeminate schoolboy out of a brave man. Sholay was a super hit not because of Jai or Veeru, but because of the portrayal and dialogues of Gabbar Singh which people went repeatedly to hear and see in a pre-video era.

There were some mistakes like Malik Kafur is shown as a man from somewhere in middle east. Malik Kafur as a child (Hindu) was captured and enslaved from Gujarat in one of the expedition of Nusrat Khan Khilzi.

The movie correctly depicted Alaudeen Khilji as perverted egoistic only wanting to own everything person (They didn't show his Homosexual side which he was).

Yes, Malik Kafur was a converted Hindu who was then castrated. He became a most vicious character. He went on a rampage in the South and destroyed Warangal and other kingdoms there. He was also the lover of Khilji, who was clearly bisexual. It would have been more accurate to show these aspects of Khilji and thus paint a really true picture of the iconoclast and sadist that he was. Wiki of course says a different thing, but again, who knows what motivates the editorship there.

I for one am NOT watching this movie. I think SLB is over-the-top melodramatic and I find his motives a bit suspect. As has been said before, if you want to make a historical epic of this kind, why not on Rana Sanga or Rana Pratap? Or Guru Gobind Singh, Shivaji, or any of the other true heroes of our past? After I saw Devdas and that bumbling idiot ham it up trying to copy Dilip Kumar, I gave up on SLB's films.

Of course the movie will do well, as did Slumdog Millionaire, another one that I refused to see.

[sbajwa]

by Primus
It would have been more accurate to show these aspects of Khilji and thus paint a really true picture of the iconoclast and sadist that he was. Wiki of course says a different thing, but again, who knows what motivates the editorship there.

I was disappointed that SLB shows that Khilji wants everything and gets everything by using force but not enough of his perversions.

In the beginning there is a scene where they are celebrating Khilji's wedding with his wife watching the dances outside while Khilji is having sex with a women inside., somebody questions him and he kills that person and then continued having sex.

In India, they did show little bit about women enslaved, princess tied to pillar responding with pride (not bowing down) frustrating Khilji. So in the end SLB I think successfully portrayed this movie as the biggest defeat of Alaudiin Khilji.

Later Khilji was so much perverted that Malik Kafur was leading his armies to south and other places.

[shravanp]

I for one am NOT watching this movie. I think SLB is over-the-top melodramatic and I find his motives a bit suspect. As has been said before, if you want to make a historical epic of this kind, why not on Rana Sanga or Rana Pratap? Or Guru Gobind Singh, Shivaji, or any of the other true heroes of our past? After I saw Devdas and that bumbling idiot ham it up trying to copy Dilip Kumar, I gave up on SLB's films.

No more history movies please. I think they Bhaiwood has destroyed our historical icons. My upcoming fear is Riteish Deshmukh enacting Shivaji in Marathi movie.

There's some gossip of Ajay Devgan doing movie on Tanaji Malusare.