The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - Oct 2018)

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Supratik
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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:43 pm

Modi has a clean slate in public life for close to 20 years. Just because some are putting up cooked up charges doesn't mean people are going to suddenly believe it. They didn't believe Godhra inspite of 12 years of herculean effort by the C-system. He will likely talk about it during the campaign. No need to give it any more importance. There is a saying in Bengali the thief protests the most.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Gus » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:51 pm

Sachin wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:03 pm
But it would be better to shut up the non-sense on this once and for all.
how?

some or other nonsense will always be generated and a round of late night debates and tweet-shots will follow in coordinated manner in the ecosystem.

If BJP doesn't go to those channels, they will keep saying "why is BJP not replying to these questions, what r they afraid of blah blah"

If they go there, they will try and twist it with usual tactics and keep the pot boiling.

and next round in the next news cycle.

At some point, we have to see the forest and not just the day to day trees in news cycle.

Modi has shown enough alacrity in reading the narrative and how to counter/modify it in the election stretch. I would let him do his job on this instead of projecting my wishes and insecurities on him...

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:28 pm

Yes, as election comes near charges are going to fly thick and fast. It is all about substance to the charges e.g. if you call Modi a chor it is not going to go well with the voting public. Once the campaign starts it is all about seizing the initiative and dictating the narrative through oration. While the RaGa campaign is about unsubstantiated negatives, the Modi campaign will be about all the positives he has done. Next comes Amit Shah's election micromanagement and the RSS/BJP cadres getting the vote out.


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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:05 pm

I don't know why there is so much rona-dhona. From what I am seeing - granted it is mostly YT videos - BJP is fighting back, through press conferences, television debates (biggest waste of time, IMHO) and speeches. There is so much rebuttal on the Rafale issue alone that you have to be really mulish and a die-hard Congi not to see what the reality is. The opposition is clutching at straws, they don't really know what the problem is and since there really is no problem with this whole thing, they have to make up stories and bang the drum as loud as they can.

Having said that, there is no doubt that the battle in 2019 will be for India's soul and it is truly an 'astitva ki ladai', make no mistake. Meanwhile, this Friday will be interesting. Will the RoPers all come out ready for mayhem or will they be distributing sweetsf after the prayers?

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Gus » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:25 pm

for an issue to stick..there needs to be a solid base that you can keep and then try and attack from there.

what is the base for rafale? there is no base. the news cycle keeps throwing different stuff. look at how it started and where it is now. it has now come to "modi gave money to anil ambani" or is it modi got money from anil ambani.. :?

they even threw in a "modi took decision on his own without consulting his cabinet" in there...like people actually give a crap about that. But the opposition wanted to link it to "modi is authoritarian" as though people give a crap about that either.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Rudradev » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:03 pm

Some people here criticize the BJP for not doing a "forceful" or "fiery" enough job of rebutting the INC's allegations on Rafale. It's obvious that BJP spokespersons are calmly, methodically refuting the garbage thrown at them... but they just don't seem angry enough or vehement enough in their denials and counter-arguments.

I wonder if that is actually part of the plan. Modi, as a consummate electioneer (having never lost an election since 2001) may well recognize that public memory is, most of all, short. Responding very aggressively to a narrative (especially a false narrative) initiated by the opposition, serves actually to give that narrative more importance than it deserves, which will end up prolonging its lifespan in public memory.

This week/fortnight it is Rafale. Before that it was Fuel Prices. Before that it was Jobs. Before that GST. And at every turn, some agitation or other at the local level (Patidar, Maratha, Dalit, Sterlite etc. etc.)

So just because the loudest voices of the MahaThug Bandhan are shouting about Rafale today... it's worth asking, are they actually "winning" the public-perception battle in the absence of an equally loud response by BJP?

After all, they were shouting just as loudly (and baselessly) about Fuel Prices, Jobs, or whatever the flavour of the month was, not too long ago. Those issues got played to death in social media and the news channel cycles, and then... somehow... disappeared from the public consciousness. Fuel Prices just went up AGAIN this week, but there was no Bharat Bandh, no protest, nothing.

In fact, speaking of "Bharat Bandh"... it's worth noticing that the Rafale screaming began only after an earlier attempt to stage a Bharat Bandh, based on the issues of previous weeks (fuel price, jobs, etc.) was a total failure.

I think the BJP's strategy is this:
1) Let the MahaThugs shout about whatever it is. Within 2-3 weeks they will be shouting about something else.
2) Don't respond with equally vociferous shouting at an *official* level. That dignifies the issue-of-the-month which the MahaThugs have chosen, and gives their narrative more legitimacy, prolonging the time it remains in public consciousness.
3) Let social media proxies respond vigorously and strongly. The most fiery counter-arguments are thus seen as coming from the people, not from the BJP itself. This elevates the BJP/GOI to a higher level of dignity in the discourse, while INC is seen to be slugging it out with pro-Modi aam janta in social media.
4) If the overall, long-term tone and tenor of BJP's statements is factual and quiet... then, on the rare occasion when the PM or some other high-level spokesperson makes a strongly charged statement, the impact (by contrast to normal discourse) is far more explosive. Compare this with Pappu who is constantly shouting.

I am not sure if the strategy is sound, and it is certainly not "satisfying" to many of us here. Still, for the moment I am willing to concede that Modi knows far more about the dynamics of public sentiment than anybody here. He is no stranger to these sorts of attacks from the "maut ka saudaagar" days onwards. So he probably is well aware of what he is doing.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by merlin » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:17 am

The opposition is waging a war of a thousand cuts. It remains to be seen if this will have an effect in 2019.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Sachin » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:04 am

Primus wrote:I don't know why there is so much rona-dhona. From what I am seeing - granted it is mostly YT videos - BJP is fighting back, through press conferences, television debates (biggest waste of time, IMHO) and speeches. There is so much rebuttal on the Rafale issue alone that you have to be really mulish and a die-hard Congi not to see what the reality is.
I have stopped watching New channel debates long time back, mainly in order to get my BP and mental balance under control. But on social media I see lots of explanations being given out on the Rafale deal and some of them are really well researched. But these generally are spread by BJP sympathisers and not by any social media cells of BJP. And what happens in social media is that, people who are anti-BJP any ways would just see these posts, put in some abusive comments and then just go away. And for all such people they have also pretty much made up their minds (pro-BJP, pro-Congress etc.) :).
Meanwhile, this Friday will be interesting. Will the RoPers all come out ready for mayhem or will they be distributing sweetsf after the prayers?
Verdict is to come out after 2PM today, that is what I heard.
Rudradev wrote:I am not sure if the strategy is sound, and it is certainly not "satisfying" to many of us here. Still, for the moment I am willing to concede that Modi knows far more about the dynamics of public sentiment than anybody here.
+1. For me too the only hope is on the current folks who are running the BJP ship. A.Shah & N.Modi, are seasoned politicians and all said and done BJP is the only party which has a higher pan-India presence as of today. So they still have some advantages.
merlin wrote:The opposition is waging a war of a thousand cuts. It remains to be seen if this will have an effect in 2019.
To evaluate that, we must see how many cuts were made so far and how many wounds have healed and how many remain open. Fuel prices may be one such wound. But cuts like "De.Mo criticism" etc. have now been healed up completely.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Sachin » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:41 am

SC declines to refer to five-judge Bench the issue whether mosques are integral to Islam
  • The apex court said now the civil suit on land dispute will be heard by a newly constituted three-judge bench on October 29 as Justice Misra will retire on October 2 as the CJI - which also means that the verdict on on RJB would be delayed.
  • A three-judge bench of the high court, in a 2:1 majority ruling, had ordered that the 2.77 acres of land be partitioned equally among the Sunni Waqf Board*, the Nirmohi Akhara and Ram Lalla.
* Remember reading that it was the Shia Waqf board which actually had possession of the land.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:07 am

^

Just read about this on TOI's website. Hindu advocates are claiming a near-victory while Muslims are saying this is 'quick justice' and not 'measured justice'.

Not sure I understand the implications myself. Is this going to be delayed indefinitely now or is there a danger of the new 'secular' bench deciding against the Ram Mandir?

What I can believe is that this will become a major election issue for all sides.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Gus » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:44 pm

the Dy air chief's interview was very revealing..there were some good things like the setting escalation to actual depreciation and capping to 3.5 (earlier it was fixed at 3.9 every year regardless of actual)..

and pawar has refused to back rahul

https://www.financialexpress.com/india- ... s/1328757/

we are dhoti shiver here, but in reality it is the opposition in dhoti shiver but trying to fool with false bravado with the aid of loudspeakers in its eco system..

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:01 pm

Primus, it means no more delaying tactics. It also means the argument that the Babri Mosque as a crucial religious place to Islam will not find merit. It also means this argument cannot be used in future for any mosque. Now it is a purely land dispute. Also hearings can now take place regularly. Some are claiming verdict may come before 2019 elections.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:38 pm

Thanks Supratik. I am beginning to understand this now. Here is an interesting debate with Rohit Sardana with a live audience. Of course these are all staged, but I am getting the feeling (have had for a while), that the average Muslim is not really against the Ram Mandir, but against the politics associated with it. Who wouldn't want to live in peace if left to their own thinking?

And if it boils down simply to a land dispute, would the current WAKF board (presumably one of the parties claiming ownership) not be amenable to selling it for a price? One can always hope......


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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by SSundar » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:55 pm

Rudradev wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:03 pm
I wonder if that is actually part of the plan. Modi, as a consummate electioneer (having never lost an election since 2001) may well recognize that public memory is, most of all, short. Responding very aggressively to a narrative (especially a false narrative) initiated by the opposition, serves actually to give that narrative more importance than it deserves, which will end up prolonging its lifespan in public memory.
Much more importantly, it is about "Focus". Modi seems to be trying to keep the fuel taxes high and redirect the money effectively to Ayushman Bharat, Road Building, 100% Household Electrification, Railway Safety, etc., and the gazillions of other projects in the works. Given how meticulous (somewhat micromanage'y) he is, that will take up most of his and his ministers' bandwidth. If he chose to NOT spend his and his ministers' valuable time chasing thugbandhan noises, more power to him. However, he does need to make sure that the people sit up and notice that posture, which is overall positive for the country.

I do see a noticeable uptick in BJP combativeness. Sitaraman, Irani, Gadkari, Jaitley, Goyal, etc. have folded up their lungis and entered the wrestling mat. Remember #RahulKaPuraKhandanChor? That is as sharp as things have gotten. Sushmaji's measured silence in this melee is telling. She seems to have gone over to the dark side.

In response to all the TV whining about fuel prices, Gadkari has consistently said two things: (1) It is a temporary phenomenon and WILL go away (2) He is pushing Ethanol-blending that can bring prices down to Rs. 50 per litre. Twitter is abuzz with posts that say Rupee-based trade with Iran will address (1).

I don't know how feasible (2) is. Can any Gurus comment?

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Supratik » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:57 pm

It would have been solved long back. The Muslim side was amenable at one point. However the Commie-Secular-Left/lib inserted themselves into the dispute and have since been egging on the Muslim side not to compromise.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:22 pm

Supratik wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:57 pm
It would have been solved long back. The Muslim side was amenable at one point. However the Commie-Secular-Left/lib inserted themselves into the dispute and have since been egging on the Muslim side not to compromise.
Yeah, that's always been the problem - Hindus who are more muslim than muslims.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Gus » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:01 pm

ethanol can max be 15%..and procurement and mixing can cost upto 5%?

so I guess max reduction will be around 8 to 10% ...

important thing is this reduces import bill and money goes to our mills, farmers and processors.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by la.khan » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:07 pm

Supratik wrote: Primus, it means no more delaying tactics. It also means the argument that the Babri Mosque as a crucial religious place to Islam will not find merit. It also means this argument cannot be used in future for any mosque. Now it is a purely land dispute. Also hearings can now take place regularly. Some are claiming verdict may come before 2019 elections.
Now that RJB @ Ayodhya is purely a land dispute, how good is the evidence for us Dharmics? RoPers may have a document/firman issued by some sultan/Mughal emperor. What do we have to back up our claim to the land?

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:54 pm

^
It is a matter of record that the Mughals were invaders and as such, any land they claimed for their own, was the property of somebody else earlier. The big question is, who? In the case of the RJB, there is clear evidence that there was a temple beneath the mosque, that too is undisputed. All that remains then is to establish who the owners of that temple were. That is where, IMHO the problem lies. There is nobody extant who can lay claim to that ancient temple AFAIK. You can say 'the Hindus own it', yes, but which Hindus?

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by hanumadu » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:42 pm

la.khan wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:07 pm
Supratik wrote: Primus, it means no more delaying tactics. It also means the argument that the Babri Mosque as a crucial religious place to Islam will not find merit. It also means this argument cannot be used in future for any mosque. Now it is a purely land dispute. Also hearings can now take place regularly. Some are claiming verdict may come before 2019 elections.
Now that RJB @ Ayodhya is purely a land dispute, how good is the evidence for us Dharmics? RoPers may have a document/firman issued by some sultan/Mughal emperor. What do we have to back up our claim to the land?
Hindus will most likely get 2/3 of the land as per the Lucknow high court judgement. But ideally they should get the rest of the 2/3rds too.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by hanumadu » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:43 pm

Primus wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:54 pm
^
It is a matter of record that the Mughals were invaders and as such, any land they claimed for their own, was the property of somebody else earlier. The big question is, who? In the case of the RJB, there is clear evidence that there was a temple beneath the mosque, that too is undisputed. All that remains then is to establish who the owners of that temple were. That is where, IMHO the problem lies. There is nobody extant who can lay claim to that ancient temple AFAIK. You can say 'the Hindus own it', yes, but which Hindus?
The disputing partys are RJB Shilanyas Trust, Nimrohi Akhara and Sunni Waqf board. So one of these will get it I guess.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Rudradev » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:59 pm

J Sai Deepak a long time ago explained that if Ayodhya RJB is treated as a land dispute, we are sure to win (barring total malpractice by the SCJs).

Please see the videos here... he explains very well how the Ms have NO case in a land dispute.

Part1
https://youtu.be/e_OiGr5MomM

Part2
https://youtu.be/GwFTpZHXX-I

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Primus » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:04 pm

hanumadu wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:43 pm
Primus wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:54 pm
^
It is a matter of record that the Mughals were invaders and as such, any land they claimed for their own, was the property of somebody else earlier. The big question is, who? In the case of the RJB, there is clear evidence that there was a temple beneath the mosque, that too is undisputed. All that remains then is to establish who the owners of that temple were. That is where, IMHO the problem lies. There is nobody extant who can lay claim to that ancient temple AFAIK. You can say 'the Hindus own it', yes, but which Hindus?
The disputing partys are RJB Shilanyas Trust, Nimrohi Akhara and Sunni Waqf board. So one of these will get it I guess.
Unless the court really messes this one, there is no way the Sunni Wakf board gets it because there is clearly a temple on the site that predates the mosque. If you argue that Babar had the rights to the temple land by way of conquest then almost everything in north India belongs to the Muslims and this is simply an untenable position.

As far as the other two parties are concerned, I do not recall the details but how does the Nirmohi Akhara come into the picture, and if they win half the land or the entire lot, are they inclined to build the Ram Mandir or are they another fly in the ointment? I don't know their antecedents well in this regard.

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Re: The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - )

Post by Muns » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:37 am

I will say this. The volume of information that proves that they was the temple beneath Ram janmabhoomi is overwhelming. It comes from various quarters not only Hindu is simply overwhelming. From archaeological evidence from the ASI over multiple excavations and multiple findings is again simply overwhelming. Most positively indicated by the 14 black pillars of schistose used in the masjid itself.

Not just from Hindu tradition but it is also seen in Muslim testimony as well. We may mention the Chahal Nasaih, really written by Aurangzeb granddaughter in 1700 way she praises Muslims asserted their presence in the places of worship such as Mathura, Varanasi and Awadh. Even among European travelers, there is attestation by Josef Tieffenthaler in 1767 who describes in detail how Hindus kept on worshiping on Ram Navami in the masjid courtyard.

I can go on and on including revenue records as well. From the AIBMAC ( all India board of masjid action committee ) there is simply no evidence apart from shiploads of made up testimonials from so-called experts stating otherwise. There is nothing to say about the actual archaeological evidence as well.

The Supreme Court can never actually take on physical evidence and prove it against heresay. Today Ayodhya, tomorrow Mathura and Varanasi.

I will say, that here at India aware we have made a video from the president of the Akhil Bharatiya Hindu Mahasabha, Chander Prakash who are one of the original parties to the case, To get his views on the likely outcome of the Ram Janmabhoomi verdict.



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