The Great Indian Political Drama - 2 (Mar 2018 - Oct 2018)

[Gus]

If we consider the ones that came in even around 1995, they probably have grand kids now.

even with backdating, unless these are forcibly deported, or "Self-deported" (another great american wordplay ) , if they end up still staying here and becoming citizens eventually (15 or 20 years), those areas where they are concentrated are demographically doomed.

The immediate gains are they cannot vote now and until they get citizenship, and this will discourage further migrations (will it?)

identifying and NRC is a first step. not sure where this will go or stop.

[KL Dubey]

^^^@Suraj.....Going off topic, but I must vehemently disagree with the last part of your post. If you allow children of illegals (even with 1 Indian parent) to naturalize in a few years, we will still be fawked by the demographic change. Given the religion of the illegals, one can easily expect 3 to 5 kids at least from each such case who will all eventually become Indians with the aid of various NGOs funded by petroriyals. And then they will start a chain of illegal migration again leading to naturalization. So how will we be solving the deomgraphic problem? In fact you are now suggesting that the state officially aid and abet it !!! NO.

[KL Dubey]

PS: we absolutely cannot start a new goremint bureaucracy to hear and approve naturalization cases involving illegal immigrants. India is only for Indians, not for illegals who can turn into Indians just by hanging around for a few years or effectively just by being born in India. Totally unconstitutional and counterproductive.

[Suraj]

It's a fair argument. Thinking about it, I have a suggestion based on how another country does something similar, that I know about mainly because it applies to me - UK modes of nationality. UK citizenship has two kinds "by descent" and "otherwise than by descent" (i.e. birth, adoption, naturalization, registration). What's the difference, you ask ? Well, they're both equal in all rights, except one - a citizen by descent cannot pass on their citizenship to their child.

I would prefer that all these citizenships after a long wait are of only this kind, i.e. they cannot pass it to their children.

I can't speak for the argument about "actions by various NGOs etc" . I would prefer that we make ourselves a nation of clear statute laws regarding naturalization. In other words, things like ration cards prove nothing regarding nationality. Everything is dependent on the establishment of a clear system of identification and tracking of citizenship.

While I understand that ideally we'd rather not naturalize anyone here illegally, I don't see us having sufficient political wish to simply push them all out. If that could be done, great. I'm happy to change my mind about this as realities indicate I should.

[Gus]

The two extremes are - deport them all, and give path to citizenship for all. We need to find a good solution that stops further migration, some moral and ethical solution for borderline cases (one parent Indian), and what to do with the rest. Deportation is easy to talk, but we don’t have that much leverage over BD.

The separate citizenship that does not propagate - is that for the issue of “chain migration” (another Americanism ) ? The kids will anyways be eligible for whatever path to citizenship that their illegal parents have, right?

[Suraj]

American (or any New World) citizenship laws rarely port over to the Indian context. Their prerogative was to populate the land. Ours is the diametric opposite. Likewise, UK laws have various specific provisions on account of running around half the world and having to define who's a citizen and who's a native - the end result being a whole bunch of ethnic British folk end up having to do strange things to qualify as British, and on the other hand someone like me is supposedly British just because of where a parent was born, though I'd never even been anywhere near the place in the first 3 decades of my life.

Here are some concepts used in various places:
US: anyone born on US soil is citizen. Doesn't matter if both parents are illegal
UK: citizenship passes ONE generation from someone born in UK to someone not born in UK
Ireland/Italy: citizenship passes by descent to multiple generations.

Citizenship by descent or otherwise is not different in rights - they have the same rights. They just can't equally pass it on. I think Indian citizenship law revisions already address a lot of extent prior issues, but there remains more to be done. We used to have jus soli until 1987. A more hardline version of my earlier suggestion would be:
* Illegal migrants cannot ever naturalize while resident. Only option is to leave, re-enter on a valid visa status and reside for naturalization norms (12 years minimum) plus additional time due to penalization for prior illegal entry.
* Child of two illegals has no direct path to Indian citizenship. Only via exiting and coming in on a valid visa status.
* Child of one illegal and one Indian may be able to naturalize without leaving India, but after 12 years, and cannot transmit Indian citizenship unless married to another Indian who doesn't have citizenship the same way, i.e. from a union of citizen+illegal. However this is a legal hole since the kid would be born stateless. An alternative is that where one parent is Indian and other is illegal, the child has no direct path to citizenship but has 'DACA' like right to reside and work, but not to citizenship, and their kids also will not have citizenship.

[Gus]

Well, then there is the case that we gave land (partition) to the ones who did not want to be Indians, and so they have no rights to come back and ask to be Indians.

In almost all the citizenship/visa related stuff, there is always some language about Pakistan and BD, so we already have some discrimination based on the origin of the person.

[KL Dubey]

All these new options being suggested above are playing into the hands of those who want to change the demography and culture of India. Most of them are not constitutionally valid anyway.

Unlike the US,we are fortunate that our current laws on this topic are still favorable for controlling illegal imigration. Only the executive options need be figured out. In summary, there is absolutely no need to entertain any other options now.

Just get the NRC done at least in all BD border states, strike all illegals from any form of social participation (elections, aadhaar cards, etc), and eventually deport all illegals to BD (by reverse infiltration if necessary). This whole idea of BD refusing to take them back is humbug. What exactly are they going to do if BSF or Indian Army drives across the border twice a day to dump a few truckfuls of BDs ?

[Suraj]

KL(p)D saar: I'm all in favor of NRC being done on the whole country, and everyone being issued biometric IDs . I'm entirely in favor of all subsidized support for undocumented folks ending. No ration cards, no access to subsidies, MUDRA scheme etc, unless you are a documented citizen. I don't mind them working and paying taxes. They add to the tax base without being able to access any benefits . That's fine with me.

Our citizenship records are are fairly poor . Our citizenship laws though, have been updated to handle a bunch of considerations quite well, but could use further updates to close out propagation of citizenship in certain circumstances. I tried to explain that multiple nations do have laws that restrict free propagation of citizenship, and there's no reason we can't have such laws.

[bharotshontan]

Why can we not just take Bangladesh back? Who will stop India or what repercussions will happen that we can't weather?

I'd say we do that, and then repeal article 370 from Kashmir and instead put it on Assam to assuage their demographic issues. Akhandata on western end is not happening but why not do it on eastern side? Let Didi and other two Begums have fights over cmship of Akhand Bangla lol

[achoudhury]

Why can we not just take Bangladesh back? Who will stop India or what repercussions will happen that we can't weather?

I'd say we do that, and then repeal article 370 from Kashmir and instead put it on Assam to assuage their demographic issues. Akhandata on western end is not happening but why not do it on eastern side? Let Didi and other two Begums have fights over cmship of Akhand Bangla lol

Take Bangladesh Back? Are you serious ? Do you know who lives in BD? And we want more of them. Here we are taking about sending back BDs and you are proposing why dont we take all of them . Suggestion like this only would have inspired the quote "Aa Bail Mujhe Maar".

[achoudhury]

Our citizenship records are are fairly poor . Our citizenship laws though, have been updated to handle a bunch of considerations quite well, but could use further updates to close out propagation of citizenship in certain circumstances. I tried to explain that multiple nations do have laws that restrict free propagation of citizenship, and there's no reason we can't have such laws.

India's citizenship law may not have evolved for every eventuality but it is very clear with respect to Pakistan and BD. There is no a ambiguity on that regard. Even refugees who came after 1948 can not be given citizenship due to that. Which is why BJP has come up with new refugee law which is stuck in JPC. Even Assam NRC exercise is very clear for citizenship criteria. To overcome the historical citizenship record it has clear guidelines to prove who is a citizen. We could use it as template for entire country.

[Suraj]

I am not referring to Pak and BD exclusion principles in nationality law . Those are not recent - they were in the original 1955 act too . What I am talking about is the elimination of jus soli in 1987, and the additional clause that one illegal parent excludes the child from citizenship, according to the 2003 changes . That is a reflection of the law keeping up with the changing dynamics particularly in the northeast . The addtion of an extra principle that anyone offered citizenship by amnesty or otherwise as an illegal cannot propagate citizenship , will root out the ‘chain citizenship’ problem as well , since the child will not have Indian but BD citizenship only, gained from other parent .

The intent of the law should be to close out all avenues for demographic pressure on the voter rolls by illegals . However this requires a drastically greater effort at expanding the writ of NRC nationwide (its a worthwhile poll slogan for BJP) and a full chip-based biometric residence and ID card for all , that also holds citizenship data .

[Sachin]

Pollsters predict doom for BJP in MP, R'than, C'garh . Dooms day predictions have already started. The polls are for later part of this year.

JNU student activist Umar attacked near Parliament. Who would actually demolish a toilet wall as part of a house breaking attempt and seek prison sentence? . Who in the world would attack such kind of people like Umar Khalid? I am getting a feeling that "Hindu terror" cases are now being cooked up.

[achoudhury]

I am not referring to Pak and BD exclusion principles in nationality law . Those are not recent - they were in the original 1955 act too . What I am talking about is the elimination of jus soli in 1987, and the additional clause that one illegal parent excludes the child from citizenship, according to the 2003 changes . That is a reflection of the law keeping up with the changing dynamics particularly in the northeast . The addtion of an extra principle that anyone offered citizenship by amnesty or otherwise as an illegal cannot propagate citizenship , will root out the ‘chain citizenship’ problem as well , since the child will not have Indian but BD citizenship only, gained from other parent .

The intent of the law should be to close out all avenues for demographic pressure on the voter rolls by illegals . However this requires a drastically greater effort at expanding the writ of NRC nationwide (its a worthwhile poll slogan for BJP) and a full chip-based biometric residence and ID card for all , that also holds citizenship data .

Ok, I see your point now regarding cases arising out of just one legal Indian Parent wrt NE. BJP could actually it as a leverage for passing the new amended citizenship law for minority refugee.

[Supratik]

I know it sounds harsh but I am against giving citizenship to Hindu illegals from Bdesh as this is what the Islamists want i.e. to ethnically cleanse Bdesh and then complain to everyone about Rohingyas and Myanmar. Situation in Bdesh both economically or otherwise is not that bad that it will require mass migration of Hindus. Instead this opportunity should be used to repopulate Bdesh with Hindus. Meanwhile, Mamata is going to put pressure that this is an anti-Bengali act but keep continuing to dangle the citizenship bill till TMC is defeated. Situation in Pak is grave and Hindus from there should be given citizenship on ad-hoc basis as is the case now.

[Gus]

buzz building up on i-day speech..rumors on healthcare announcement etc.

[KJo]

I know it sounds harsh but I am against giving citizenship to Hindu illegals from Bdesh as this is what the Islamists want i.e. to ethnically cleanse Bdesh and then complain to everyone about Rohingyas and Myanmar. Situation in Bdesh both economically or otherwise is not that bad that it will require mass migration of Hindus. Instead this opportunity should be used to repopulate Bdesh with Hindus. Meanwhile, Mamata is going to put pressure that this is an anti-Bengali act but keep continuing to dangle the citizenship bill till TMC is defeated. Situation in Pak is grave and Hindus from there should be given citizenship on ad-hoc basis as is the case now.

In general I am for giving refuge to distressed Hindus from around the world but I think you make a very good point.

[abhik]

^
Giving asylum might be a better solution, else we are in a lose-lose situation.

[bharotshontan]

Why can we not just take Bangladesh back? Who will stop India or what repercussions will happen that we can't weather?

I'd say we do that, and then repeal article 370 from Kashmir and instead put it on Assam to assuage their demographic issues. Akhandata on western end is not happening but why not do it on eastern side? Let Didi and other two Begums have fights over cmship of Akhand Bangla lol

Take Bangladesh Back? Are you serious ? Do you know who lives in BD? And we want more of them. Here we are taking about sending back BDs and you are proposing why dont we take all of them . Suggestion like this only would have inspired the quote "Aa Bail Mujhe Maar".

We already deal with 170 million. How much worse can it get? Other option is figure out how to reduce the existing 170 million. We've been doing this "na idhar ka na udhar ka" approach since 47 and developing serious problems in our polity and centrifugally diverging ideas on how to deal with demographic threat.

[Primus]

Israel welcomes any Jew from anywhere in the world. Hindus have no nation left. It would be nice if the GOI were to grant 'asylum' to any Hindu, but then the country would have to be called 'A Hindu Nation', something I doubt anybody has the courage to do.

[Suraj]

That is not asylum, but Right of Return. It’s a good idea but difficult to implement . Say someone comes from BD comes in claiming to be Hindu and then ‘converts to Islam’ (which he was all along). How does hat play out ?

Israel and the Jewish diaspora are small enough to make Right of Return work . In our case, not quite ...

[Gus]

anybody with the transcript of the speech?

[Rahul M]

A blogpost from stan (for those who remember him from BRF) on the legacy of MuKa over a backdrop of commentary on Tamland politics.
http://dharma-yuddham.blogspot.com/2018 ... mland.html

I am reproducing the last paragraphs here :

...

With the passing away of both JJ and Mu Ka, we have a giant vaccum that cannot be filled in by the likes of the 4-5 percenters (aka Vijayakanth, Ramadoss, VaiKo, Thirumaa, etc.). Nor can they be filled by the likes of PC and the essential jokers in Satyamurti Bhavan. Completely out of picture are the nationalists in Kamalalayam. Just because that name sounds similar to Arivalayam or Anbagam, the BJP cannot overnight replace the Dravidian front with its own agenda. In fact, what is the agenda of BJP in Tamland, one wonders. May be nothing and that is not too bad in a way! This vacuum that corresponds to the fourth era sees the likes of Rajnikanth and Kamalahassan trying to wade into.

In fact, I did witness a surreal event before Vishwaroopam-II that was played out in the movie hall in the US --- an in-your-face petty propaganda clip for Kamal's party, MNM. Gone are the days when subtlety used to be an art-form with phrases such as "Anna, nee naalai aaluvaai" to "thalaivare" or movie titles such as "Kaanchi Thalaivan", or even Rajnikanth's quasi-political dialogues couched as real movie dialogues in such movies as Padaiyappa and Bhaasha. This in-your-face propaganda and the distancing of the party name itself by calling it a Maiyyam or Maiam (however that is written in English), instead of a Kazhagam or a Katchi (loosely translated as either an Organization, a Grouping, or a Party) + a more South-centric focus rather than a Tamland-centric focus (not quite sure what exactly would come out of it though) just stands quite opposite to what used to be status quo. Not much good is likely to come out of such ventures, especially if one has to see Vishwaroopam-II as the first-post MNM movie to showcase a new-Kamal, if there really was one who indeed needed a rebranding.

The continuing strong anti-Shaivite stand in some form or the other starting with Anbe Shivam and continuing through Dasavatharam and now Vishwaroopam + a world where all establishmentists speak a Brahminical Tamil (laughable even it were only a fraction true) + a confused stand on terrorism (with dialogues such as "religion does not cause terrorism, but people do" quite like the NRA's stand on gun violence) does not portend an intelligent yet unintelligible Kamal who is trolled by all and sundry. This is more of a useless idiot (in contrast to the useful idiots) wanting to be a do-gooder who is probably just the wrong pressure valve in a state filled with an enormity of confrontations, complications and confused histories.

The other side sees Rajnikanth's political fantasy-world with an always ueber-correct hero now having to confront political quagmires where one does have to make a significant compromise, and can and does get trolled ceaselessly in such ventures. This front is also not likely to see a great future ahead even if it presents a mirror to the hypocrisy of the state and its erstwhile/current crop of self-declared leaders (unabashed anti-Brahminism/anti-Hinduism, but with the reality of someone who cannot skip a yellow shawl for decades + need to pull the plug on an Ekadesi and a quick burial on Dwadasi so that one can attain saranagati at the lotus feet of the same venerable God who one can veritably question as if one is a Nakkeeran-lite just because they have read Tamil well + a clamoring for a burial site despite having pretty much a good chunk of Madras in one's possessions + a corrupt regime that is tolerated and accepted as lawful/reasonable/forgivable, let alone a bigamy + countless other accusations). Primary reasons for Rajni's failure would be the strong pulls and conflicts that he has to handle + the unrealistic expectations that he has already projected (real or imaginary) + the poor health he will have to confront in building an organization from the ground up despite the presence of enough of his rasikar mandrams + a changing reality of a significantly aspiring middle-class where there is no unquestioned loyalty to anything ideological/to any person, even if reality seems otherwise, etc.

With a similar age class as Modi and MK Stalin, these two film stars have probably 5-10 years (if at all!) of good/reasonably healthy life before all their vices start taking a real effect on their well-beings. This chasm is not likely to be filled by the different power centers in ADMK and its splinter-ist outfits corrupt as they are, nor is there an alternate hope when the reality of DMK's family-centric agenda comes up to the forefront. Whether such chasms get filled up by pro-leftist anarchist outfits that supposedly emancipate marginalized outfits or worse, pro-Tamil outfits with an axe-to-grind on every Tamil problem in this vast wide world, or whether they get pushed back by caste re-affirmation fronts, or whether there is a space for moderate yet nationalist forces would be an interesting problem to witness, if only one was an outsider peering in. For an insider peering out, these are bound to be eternally uncomfortable events where one lays low, watches the surreality of modern Tamland and its various actors get played out in real-life Big Boss type events, and possibly troll away to one's merriment!

Sadly, we may not have to witness anyone asking for a plot near the Cooum in a long time to come! That may be the only comforting reality in the short while!!

[KL Dubey]

Why can we not just take Bangladesh back? Who will stop India or what repercussions will happen

Non starter. This would be like USA taking all of Mexico....now if it were Canada, sure why not. As i said before, it is fine to annex Nepal or Bhutan if it works out that way. But why on the lawd's sweet earth do you want another 80 million madarsa wallahs in India?